Casey has driven growth at several top technology startups, such as Pantheon where he more than doubled the user base and quadrupled monthly recurring revenue (MRR) to the mid-six-figures.
Scott: All right. So today I have with me Casey Armstrong. Casey is one of those guys who often operates behind the scenes working with smart people and growing massive companies. So in the past, Casey, you’ve helped drive growth at several technology startups like Mavenlink, where you helped grow the company from 5000 to 500000 customers and taking them from no revenue to six figures in monthly recurring revenue. You also worked on Pivotal Tracker, which was acquired by EMC is a very popular product. I know tons of developers and people that use it and while there you doubled organic traffic to nearly half a million monthly visitors and acquired obviously thousands of new users throughout that process. You’ve also worked at Pantheon, where you’ve helped double the customer base, quadruple revenue to millions of dollars, annual revenue, and led marketing for the New York Times best selling book, The Lean Entrepreneur. And then most recently. So, believe it or not, that was all in your past. Most recently, you ran the growth of paleo hacks to more than a million monthly uniques and over 25 million annual page views for a recent acquisition. So, Casey, welcome to the show. Excited to do this.
Casey: Nice. Just tonight. I love the intro.
Scott: Yeah, it’s glowing. It really makes you feel good. So. So before diving into questions, I just wanted to cover, you know, you just exited Paleo Hacks, a site that many people in the Paleo community are probably familiar with, like, what are you up to now?
Casey: Cool. So again, thanks for the kind words. Before I talk about my success or talk about my past, I want to congratulate you on your success of the book launch with traction. So very well done. Thank you. I actually have a handful of book projects I’m working on myself, so I’ll definitely be picking your brain there. Awesome and yeah, stoked to see still in the top books and on Amazon for marketing and business, etc.. Yeah.
Casey: Yeah. So maybe I’ll have to flip the script on you in a bit. So yeah, I’ve got a handful of projects myself, as many of you in the technology space, you know, we’ve got our hands all over the place. So we’re working with Paleo Hawks. We have we developed our own Q&A community software, which we called queue sites dot com and that actually currently runs Paleo hacks. We took a lot of our learnings and my past in SEO to really kind of create what we think is the ultimate and a Q and a software out there. And so we’ve spun that out and we’re going to turn that into a more or less like an enterprise SAS Q&A platform. And we, we have a few select customers that we’ll be rolling out in October, so I’m pretty excited about that. I think there’s a lot of opportunity for brands and individuals to really leverage community and Q&A sites in many were in many aspects, you know, really help put them as like the thought leaders in that space which can know they’ll be able to help provide value drive value to I guess their followers or that the users of the platform and just really harvest like a strong community. I mean you’re you’re seeing that like an inbound dot org or Sean Ellis and Morgan Browne’s growth hackers dot com and outside of like the marketing world as well but those I think our whole everybody watching this will know those sites quite well.
Casey: Another thing is and this also kind of came from some projects and paleo hacks is I’m putting together some online summits. We did one called Paleo Con with killer hacks. So more or less we get, you know, the the who’s who in the paleo space or whatever niche it is. And it’s a complete 1% online fad. And we have them speak on different aspects to really, you know, help the community there as much as possible. It’s like I mean, you keep seeing these online education startups popping up everywhere. So it’s it’s kind of in that vein. So I’m working on that with Patrick Flask events and we have a handful of others. We have one in the music space called Music Conf with Matt Sandler, who’s crazy smart and that’s coming out in early January. We’ve got a another in the poker space. Yeah. So that’s, that should be fun. My brother actually plays poker for a living.
Casey: And, and then for something that I think people on growth hackers TV will like and where you can see it like an online summit in the in the startup space is air pair which is led by one of the smartest minds that I know, Igor Leibovich, called Air Con. They’re doing that right now for people looking into like growth hacking. So yeah, so with air power and air cover, they’re it’s a it’s a summit to really help people with growth hacking pair programing P Ruby, etc.. And then lastly I’m as always working on a few helping a few startups with growth and marketing and a few more book projects, which I can’t get into much detail yet, but I’m sure everybody will hear about it there I guess in the pre pre-launch phase. But anyway.
Scott: Well assuming you do a good job which.
Casey: Yes, I think you do a good job there. No other option, right? Yeah.
Scott: Exactly. So, you know, I want to dove into like you’ve had an interesting background, so you’ve driven growth from all kinds of companies like you’ve done the consumer facing side of things with paleo hacks, you’ve done B2B with Mavenlink, Pivotal Tracker, you know, how do you growth techniques, strategy and tactics differ between like B2B and consumer facing products?
Casey: A great question. And I mean, you see it all the time, whether people are seeing it around marketing or growth hacking. But regardless of it’s B to B or B to C, it really starts by identifying and figure out who your target customers are and then figuring out the right mediums to reach them regardless of the product. So that’s that’s that’s where I think everything starts. But the biggest difference is typically with volume. I mean, with Mavenlink, it was we’re still driving a lot of volume. But when you’re getting like the high end sales, it’s, it’s, it’s much different. And then it’s also how you handle your customers so they get paid all you have, which is B to C, we focused on increasing targeted top of the funnel traffic, onboarding them to take specific actions like ask questions, follow topics, etc.. And this is that was all done without picking up the phone. So it’s Juno really optimizing the onboarding process. We don’t need to demo demo software. It’s better for B2B. It’s about driving qualified leads in the sales funnel, usually to get them to try your product and then make sure you follow up appropriately. Again, like a B to C out might look to add tens or hundreds of thousands of new users a month because their LTV is so much smaller, but a, B to B or enterprise company is they don’t need that. Like a startup working with called connect offer. They have deals. They can land deals worth six or seven figures, just one deal where, you know, the B2C apps, it’s usually it’s drastically less than that.
Casey: So you’ll you’ll look at different channels, but it’s also the metrics you focus on will be different, like with paleo hacks. You know something? It was our sign ups. Or email captures which which was a couple of hours were very much correlated with our SEO traffic. So as one went up, another one up. Mm hmm. And the same could be said for another company like Patricks. Patrick Super Power Company. They they, you know, he might be focusing on SEO in a similar fashion, but. If we kill, focus on our target niche keywords that might only drive 100 or 200 visitors a month because those very qualified leads then turn into paying customers. He only needs to land a handful versus get 20,000 signups that month.
Scott: Right. Yeah. Makes total sense. So, you know, I want to touch on one thing I was on. So I took a year basically off of Twitter and now I’m just starting to get back into it. And so I saw something earlier this week where David Sacks, who was PayPal, now he founded Yammer and sold like Microsoft for one point something billion. He said that? Yeah. So it was like one of the first viral B2B products. So he said that a major missed opportunity in B2B is applying consumer growth hacking tactics to B2B products. Like, what are your thoughts on that? Do you agree? And do you see that like being you know, do you see consumer growth hacks being applied more often to B2B now?
Casey: So David is I’ll call him David. I don’t know him personally. He’s he’s obviously extremely smart. I mean, people on the. It’s quite an impressive resume. Yeah. So based on that. But but I guess I just need a little more context around that statement. To be honest, I haven’t used Yammer, but they are an amazing example of a B2B product with B2C components of which I think some other products could utilize. I mean, there’s slogan alone states that sort of like an entry. I love social work. So they were so they were able they were able to like intelligently target large corporations from the bottom up. And they’re you know, they’re trying to drive like widespread adoption. And then along with that, take advantage of the cloud computing and social network growth, which which helped educate their market concurrently. Also, they are b, b and I don’t know what their enterprise sales look like. Be pretty interesting to see. But they also have like a lower price point to get people started, you know, like the $38 per month versus, you know, some B to B products that are several, maybe up to like several thousand dollars a month.
Scott: Yeah, it’s a great point. So, you know, what what dynamics do you think make it harder to apply consumer growth tactics to B2B?
Casey: So I think when people think of like growth hacking or growth tactics, they’re often thinking of like just crazy top of the funnel growth. With B-to-B, it’s, it’s, it’s often much more complex, like a more complex product, higher price point, longer sales process. So, so volume is not necessarily just a straight volume play. Yeah. And with less volume, less ability to test, you need know statistical significance to often make decisions.
Scott: Yeah, that makes sense. So, you know, one thing I wanted to chat about is a tactic that you used at Mavenlink where you utilized the Google Apps platform, I believe to get I think you said 10,000 leads per month or something like that. Like, how did you. Can you talk a little bit about how you figured that out and just like how you tested that and went through that whole process? Because I think that’s really interesting and an interesting example of B2B growth hacking.
Casey: Yes. So this was actually the genius idea of Taylor Miles, who I worked with or I and Mavenlink, etc.. And he saw it. He saw this opportunity. Google is introducing this new this new marketplace, which was going to inevitably grow. And wanted to get it at an early stage. It’s basically it was like a an extremely less hyped version of the App Store. You know, you get in early and kind of like ride the success. Yep. So this untapped new channel and then we, we basically worked on driving traffic to the marketplace or to the marketplace team, create relationships with them to see how we could help help grow the marketplace to I mean, like I was alluding to before, a rising tide lifts all boats. And so from there, we worked on getting, you know, positive, honest reviews from customers and drive installs. It’s I mean, you can kind of see it with with your traction book and Amazon it’s if people are purchasing the book it’s marketplace marketing what they want positive reviews plus purchases or installs or whatever it is that the marketplace is measuring often leads to success.
Scott: Got it.
Casey: To finish up on the Mavenlink example, what Taylor saw there and what we focused on was we needed. We’re looking for small businesses that were somewhat technologically savvy or early innovators to, quote, Crossing the Chasm. And I. And. Where’s the better place? And where is a better place to find that than than Google Maps user. So. That’s what kind of led the decision to focus on that.
Scott: Got it. Okay. And so what other platforms do you think are interesting right now, like kind of new ish, not super competitive just yet? Or are there any.
Casey: Great question. Well. I’d love if I had, like, a handful of years to always take advantage of. But I guess it’s. Relatively speaking, in the online world, it’s like one of the oldest platforms, but with some new components. And again, they’re relatively new. But I’d go with Semantic SEO. It’s been really catching a lot of steam recently, but I mean, it’s been around for for quite a while. But I think a lot of people are are kind of not necessarily paying attention to it as much as they, I think should. It’s something I’ve been focusing on a lot more lately. It actually is something that we baked into our Q&A product very heavily, because I think that’s where there’s just an amazing opportunity. And regardless whether it’s a B2B or betas company, I think that there’s so many ways to take advantage of it. I mean, you see Google sweep the SERPs all the time. I mean, Google authorship is down, but that’s that’s the most visible answer. I mean, search for like a recipe or videos and, you know, you’ll see them in the search results. So that’s something that I would have to tell people to focus on. But also any time that Google and Facebook and Bing and Yahoo! And Twitter kind of like all agree on something. Yeah, I think you can basically guarantee that it’s going to be pretty big. And also, I mean, they hold the fire hose and and also. It. I think it does provide people argue that Google’s stealing traffic, the traffic, etc.. And I mean, I don’t want to get into that whole argument, but I think it does work and benefit the users a lot. And then lastly, and this isn’t new again, but it’s email. I mean, email works extremely well. I’m working on some other projects that I didn’t touch on before, but email as like the primary focus it’s yeah. And ways to optimize email I mean there’s there’s emails not just about capturing the email and like sending them something there’s, there’s obviously a lot more that goes into it, such as getting into the inbox.
Scott: Yeah, I’ve actually been looking and I think we’ve talked about this before, but I’ve been looking at something in that space as well. And just two weeks ago, I was taking a look at some of the stuff you can do with the Gmail API. Essentially. I think that’s going to be pretty interesting too. Can do like actions and stuff in that. I think that’s really cool and I expect to see a lot more of that type of stuff happening, like you could order a product or, you know, go directly to like a sales page just from clicking on a little button that’s on the, on the, in your email, you know what I mean? And I think all that stuff is really interesting.
Casey: So I’m actually glad you brought that up because that kind of ties both these together because it’s not like know either your ability to RSVP to a calendar invite without even opening the email is just by coincidence. That’s actually like that’s semantic or that’s like the structured markup, this magic that are schema.org actions built into the email that allow you to do that. So that kind of merges like structured data and and email kind of together.
Scott: Yeah. So speaking of when you say semantic SEO is an opportunity, just occurred to me that some people out there might not know what it is, totally, validly. So we should dove into that. When you say romantic SEO, what do you mean?
Casey: So it’s kind of how you like when I said structured data it’s. It’s how you tell Google you better present to google what is or Yahoo in being if people search their what is on your page and like how things tie in together.
Scott: Mm hmm.
Casey: So, for instance, like, you might put up a recipe and Google can interpret that quite well. But as the Web expands, you know, considerably every day, you know. Google’s kind of looking to to the webmasters to help them figure out what is on the page. Is this a Web site? If so, is it? Oh, it’s about. It’s a it’s a cooking site. It’s about recipes. This this post is a recipe. How long should I cook this for? What are the ingredients? What are the etc.?
Scott: Yeah. And so when you tell people that they should look at Semantic SEO or think about taking advantage of it, does that just mean going through and restructuring their pages for like to take advantage of this kind of the way that Google is measuring it or like what does that mean in practice?
Casey: Yeah. So I think two things. I think putting things in context for how you put in practice is what’s most valuable. So like the two things there are. One is you have the potential for more visibility in the SERPs. So whether it’s, you know, a video snippet or there’s, you know, the the rating for your for your recipe, like you search, I don’t know, like apple pie recipe. And you’ll see there’s there’s ratings on it and there’s reviews and there’s maybe how long it takes to cook and stuff like that. So you’re just you’re taking up more of the real estate in the search results. And then also I. Think that Google will reward you because they’re better understanding, they’re better. They have a better understanding of what your pages are about. And so therefore there you can rank higher as well. So it’s kind of a combination of both.
Scott: So does this does semantic SEO make sense as something to focus on for a business that’s not using user generated content?
Casey: Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s not for. I think every site can use it to some extent, but. Well, let’s see this. This project that I worked on called Haier Live There. A career fair job fair company. They have B2B and B2C components. And while people aren’t necessarily commenting on on the different events, they’re able to present their events, you know, in a more structured way so we can better understand them, especially when they’re events are very timely. So it’s like this job fairs in Orange County on this date, these companies will be there, etc..
Scott: Totally. Okay, cool. That makes sense. So your blog, I want to shift gears a little bit away from Semantic SEO and talk about some of the things that you believe in, like you cover on your blog. So your blog is literally full stack marketer dotcom. Can you talk a bit about like what you mean or what you think what your definition of a full stack marketer is and then maybe touch on like how important, like how being technical fits into being a full stack marketer.
Casey: Yeah. So I could talk about that for quite a while. Start off, I mean. People could start by, you know, checking out your book trash. And I mean, it’s basically like it honestly, it lays out a lot of the full stack marketing concepts. We’ve got you over there between Gary Vaynerchuk and Marshall McLuhan and Joseph Campbell.
Scott: So I love it. I love it.
Casey: Yeah. Some big names, some big shoes to fill. So it’s so full size marketing. It’s. I mean people will hit on the term just like they do growth hacker and probably did Fullstack developer initially and what not but but whatever just helps describe you know a role or whatnot quite well. So basically someone who understands the entire stack and how everything plays together as you would extrapolate, even if you had no clue what they’re talking about. And it’s a it’s a real thing. For instance, KISSmetrics, I got an email from KISSmetrics the other day. You know, they’re they have they just released a few marketing job opportunities, which by the way, anybody listening to this talk about an unreal opportunity. I mean, if you can work with somebody like Keating Shore and Neil Patel and Lars and other people on their team, that’s something to jump on. But anyways, they include like full stack marketing is something that they’re looking for specifically. They list that they want people that have worked on everything at one point or another, content conversion, rate optimization, social email SEO, CRM and how that fits together because you’re not necessarily an expert in all of them, but you know, you know where to start and kind of how they tie together. And that’s what’s important like for an early stage startup budget and with efficiency, that’s what makes or breaks the company. And you need a drive. Like, for instance, you might need to drive traffic through SEO and social, then convert the people with, you know, your development design and SEO chops, message them with your content skills and then get the proper like drip campaign to add value to them like immediately. I mean, it probably sounds exactly, you know, what you did with with your book and startups all over do that. You know, it’s usually like a founder or a handful of people and you need to start growing this immediately. And even if you’ve raised money, it’s still oftentimes it’s one person or like two people that handle all of that. Yeah.
Scott: So true. We literally hired zero consultants for our book. Yeah.
Casey: Because because that’s your job and you don’t have, like, great budget. And if you did have crazy budget, you know, if you teach yourself those skills so you can pocket that budget.
Scott: Exactly. Exactly.
Casey: And then. Yeah, and then you mentioned the technical side of it, so I don’t consider it a must, but I don’t think anybody would argue that it’s not extremely helpful. I mean, you teach some of these like growth hacking, technical courses and like you’re not teaching somebody to be the next Ruby developer at GitHub. Yeah, but, but there’s still things you can take advantage of my skill, etc.. And so I think at least understanding basic HTML, how to build a site on existing platforms like WordPress, Drupal, etc. that can get you a really long way without having to like do hardcore programing and you’ll be like be expert and put together like a really high quality site and then be able to talk to talk like I know managing projects is helped me a lot just you know, then continue able to like lead large scale development projects and then I know like Andrew Chan, he helped me. Controversy always helps drive the conversation so I know he helped bring growth hacker to popularity by arguing that you had to be a programmer. But if you look at some of the best growth hackers out there or people who who coined the term like Sean Ellis and Keaton, who I mentioned before, and Patrick Black, they are technical, but they’re amazing marketers. Yeah. So it’s not necessarily a must. But again, I, I don’t think any of them included and Morgan Brown, who I was talking to about this a couple of days ago, like that’s like top of his list. You know, he’d love to be able to do that, but it does it shouldn’t it shouldn’t stop you from moving forward and growth hacking your full stack marketing or whatever you want to call it.
Scott: Totally agree. Yeah. I mean, I just found that technical familiarity is such a huge thing because it gives you a sense for what you can and can’t do, but then you can like pass it off to have someone else do it if it’s something that’s worth doing.
Casey: You nailed it right there. And I think that’s where marketers, wherever you want to call yourself, can really take advantage of it, is knowing like what the what the possibilities are. Yeah.
Scott: Yeah. Exactly. So I was looking at Gmail’s API docs. I’m not actually technical. I’m not going to build something there. I was just like, what are the possibilities? What functionality is this new API like enabling? And I’ve already got like some good ideas that I hired someone to help me test, you know, so it’s and I’m not like setting myself up as the perfect marketer. I just think that having an idea of what is within like the scope of possibility is really, really helpful when it comes to figuring out new growth channels, new growth hacks like tactics and all of this kind of stuff. So last thing I want to cover before we hop off is your marketing with the Lean Entrepreneur and pivotal track. So I think those two are both very interesting, like kind of so, you know, the lean entrepreneur, you guys did a lot of stuff around the launch and marketing that. And then Pivotal Tracker is like one of the better known productivity and like team tools that I’ve ever seen. And so I’d be curious, like, how long did it take you? What worked, first of all, in growing those two things? And then how long did it take you to like find your growth engine for each of those products or launches?
Casey: Cool. So those are both quite different. Yeah.
Casey: So with with lean entrepreneur, you know, it’s. What you’ll see with a lot of products that have success. And not to equate either the Lean Entrepreneur or pivotal tracker to a company like Apple, but usually companies have crazy growth and success like Facebook, Instagram, GitHub, Salesforce. Again, Apple people like all of these companies. And so a common thread between both of them was, was really harnessing the the passionate users and simultaneously creating a lot of value. Those are like, I know some people will be like, oh, well, let’s. It’s a cheesy, broad answer, but I mean, it’s it’s really the truth. I mean, for really not for poor Patrick and Brandt, you know, along with other people, the thought leaders in the lane space, such as Eric Reese and Steve Blank, who were are ridiculously smart and helped, you know, countless entrepreneurs. It’s really continuing the conversation there. And then just from a tactical standpoint, I mean, there’s that’s like a whole nother podcast with but you know, it’s things that you found helpful from from guest posting or aligning yourself with, with, with quality brands. That’s something pretty cool that that was done with a lean entrepreneur is partnering with like American Airlines and Microsoft and whatnot. I mean, that’s extremely innovative idea for for a book launch that people necessarily do that but it’s you know they. These other brands wanted to take advantage of the lean concepts and kind of align themselves there and get in front of entrepreneurs. And that worked that work extremely well. And that I mean, more big tactics. Again, we could do a whole book podcast, but you know, every.
Scott: Show at some point.
Casey: We should at some point for people who want something now. Tucker Max just did a podcast with Louis Howes a couple of weeks ago, and I mean, Tucker has several, number one best New York Times bestselling books. So what he says you should you should definitely listen to.
Scott: Totally. Now, what about Pivotal Tracker? Because that’s more of a traditional like software kind of play.
Casey: Yeah. So that was that was a combo of both Google UPS Marketplace and kind of SEO there. And so high level again, it’s who is kind of leveraging their extremely well known and well-loved brand too to really help help drive growth. It’s the. The community was out there and they just needed people to kind of help harvest that and keep them on top of the funnel. I mean, I don’t know a developer that hasn’t used Tracker at some point. To be honest, it’s it’s it’s kind of my favorite like project management software stuff, whether it’s for a developer development project or not.
Scott: Yeah, that’s true. And so can you. Like, what did you do to. Engage the people in that community. What would you say was your largest growth driver there? Like, how long did it take to get to that?
Casey: So the largest growth the largest growth driver was. Well outside of SEO is definitely the Google Apps marketplace. And again, that was similar to what I spoke about with Mavenlink. We’re looking for small businesses that that are, you know, technologically savvy, not that all Google Apps users are hyper tech savvy.
Casey: You know, this was in this was a couple of years ago. So Google Apps is even newer and we just have a better idea of of the. The small business is using that. And again, it’s mostly for software development, but trying to help make tracker, I guess slightly more mainstream. It worked quite.
Scott: Well. Yeah, that’s awesome. So final two questions to wrap. There are a lot of startups that watch growth hacker TV. What do you want startups to know about growth that they usually get wrong?
Casey: Oh, I like that. So one is don’t necessarily copy exactly what others do, but look at the why. So, for instance, if you’re a. To talk again about the Google Apps marketplace or whether it’s the Chrome Store or whatnot. Just because it worked for one company doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to work for another. But you can bet there might be. And also like. These marketplaces and whatnot become saturated. And this is just used marketplaces as an example to look at the why. But it’s whether it’s iOS App Store to US Marketplace Amazon saying, oh well they created an awesome product that people loved, helped created some type of way to get to motivate these people to like submit positive reviews and then continue to drive traffic on top of it. And so, you know, that’s kind of like the blend there, but so it’s mostly looking at the why. Mm hmm. Another thing is, don’t forget about existing traffic as mobile and tablets, etc. become. Just grow more and more. I mean, I, I don’t know what the numbers are, but people have been quoting how like iPad sales are massively exceeded Macs. So don’t forget about existing traffic like Apple you have. We were getting crazy mobile traffic, several hundred thousand visitors a month on mobile, but we weren’t trying to do an email capture there. And so we were just we spent all this time, like years of time and effort to get this get this traffic. And then, yeah, they were using the product, which is awesome. And we wanted them to keep doing that, but also we could provide value to the email. So we started capturing emails that way and you know, and then all of a sudden we start adding, you know, thousands of more email addresses to our list, which was again, a couple of hours we focused on.
Casey: So look at the why. And don’t forget about existing traffic.
Scott: That’s great. So what are some examples of startups that you see that are getting growth? Right, but aren’t household names yet?
Casey: Let’s see. That’s a that’s a tough question. I got that, though. So I’m quite biased, I guess. But I think connect to who I mentioned before they’re gonna blow up the any company that’s hiring anybody technical I think it’s a no brainer to use these people but. I guess a more household name. That’s not extreme. That’s not like an Uber or Facebook status yet. Is is Wealthfront. I mean, I can’t I can’t see their financials, but Eliot Schmeichel or their head of growth and marketing was was presenting at the 500 Startups distribution event that we were at. And, you know, just his numbers alone. And plus, you look at Elliot’s past and working he’s working with Andy Johns on this. And you team those guys together and whoever else they have on board. I mean, it’s that’s that’s a recipe for success.
Scott: Yeah, sure. Cool. And then last question. You know, what’s exciting to you right now?
Casey: I mean, like I mentioned before, I think in the marketing space, I really like the semantic SEO efforts also. I mean, just the full stack marketing in general, like tying things together. I love getting creative and just thinking of, you know, like we we had lunch a few months back and talking about tying different APIs together with email and social. And there’s just so many like cool ways to, like, for, for user growth. And and I just I think those will just continue to expand. And as people get more more creative and leverage their past learnings or learnings of others, you know, give me some pretty, pretty innovative ideas.
Scott: Awesome. Totally agree. Well, Casey, man, this has been awesome. I hope you enjoyed coming on. So thanks for your time. And yeah, we’ll we’ll give this up in a couple of weeks.
Casey: Awesome. Thanks, man.
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