Episodes

Perry Marshall

Perry Marshall

Perry Marshall is one of the most expensive business strategists in the world. He is endorsed in FORBES and INC Magazine and has worked with clients such as FanDuel, InfusionSoft, and LoanBuilder. He founded the $10 million Evolution 2.0 Prize, with judges from Harvard, Oxford and MIT.

Most of your marketing efforts don’t work, but you keep trying the same things over and over anyway. Perry will show you how to break this habit (and discover what really works) with his 80/20 marketing principles.

TOPIC PERRY COVERS

  • What is 80/20 sales and marketing mean
  • What does that title mean
  • How to break this habit and discover what works with 80/20
  • What this book is about is that 80/20 is one of the core fundamental principles of literally the universe
  • What is the 20% about
  • The slowing down or speeding up as a growth engine for companies
  • The important principles in the star principle
  • And a whole lot more

LINKS & RESOURCES

WATCH THE INTERVIEW

READ THE TRANSCRIPTION

Bronson: Welcome to another episode of Growth Hacker TV. I’m Bronson Taylor and today I have Perry Marshall with us. Perry, thanks for coming on the program.

Perry: Thanks for having me. You know, I’m usually on like marketing oriented interviews and stuff. And this is more of a equity start up, little more of a Silicon Valley feel, maybe, let’s say. And so I think it’s great to be here today.

Bronson: So maybe we can introduce you to a slightly new audience. A Yeah, so they can know how awesome you are, like already do.

Perry: Well, thanks. Thanks for having me. I’m really eager to dig in so.

Bronson: Well, let me tell people a little bit about you. You’ve done so much over the last couple of decades, but in a very high level. You’re an Internet marketing strategist. You’re an author of multiple marketing books. I mean, so many. I’m not going to list them all. You’re an expert on pay per click advertising, and that’s among many other things that kind of sum you up or is any really big things I forgot there.

Perry: No, that’s that’s fair. And I’ve I’ve generally been pigeonholed as a paper click or Google AdWords guy. And I’m actually happy to do that because it brings people to my front door. And then we, we do jazz improvization or disco or whatever country or whatever, you know, flavor is appropriate after that. So it’s a fun, interesting life for an ADHD guy who, you know, needs, needs stimulation.

Bronson: I think all of our all of us marketers that have a little bit ADHD because marketing is a play with so many things, but it’s, you know, you get pigeonholed with the Google stuff because you came out with Google AdWords book, I mean, way before people really digging into it. And I mean, you coined phrases that people use around Google AdWords. So I mean, you’re known for it because you really made a mark on an industry. So I think it’s a fair assessment there. But let’s dig into some of your books a little bit. Let’s start there. I want to start with one that you recently or more recently came out with called 8020 Sales and Marketing. And the funny story behind this is one of my co-founders of Growth at our TV is, you know, he was reading 8020 growth or 8020 sales and marketing and he keeps texting me photos of the page as he’s reading it or, you know, he quotes pieces of it. And I’ll be, you know, somewhere drive and I’m looking down. There’s a piece of a page on a text message and try to read it and, you know, see what insight is trying to show me here. And it was your book, you know, it was Perry Marshall’s 8020 marketing. And it was just awesome insight. We’ve talked about it many times. It’s helped us kind of refine some of things we do. But tell me first, what does that title mean? I think people are somewhat familiar with 8020, but break it down. What is 8020 sales and marketing mean?

Perry: Well, what it really means is that everything smart that you do and sales and marketing has something to do with 80, 20. And and so, you know, there there are two ways that you can approach any subject. Okay. One way is that you can you can learn enough little techniques or Band-Aids or whatever so that you can manage to somehow get to a result that you want. Okay. And that’s you know, that’s how most of us learn. You know, look, if you want to play drums like you’re watching, well, here’s the Jimi Hendrix technique for, you know, and they’ll, like, sit there and they’ll, like, mimic. Yeah, right. But there’s there’s another way to approach anything. And that is from from the from the the deep principle. If you could get to the bottom core, core essence of something where you’ve made it as simple as possible and absolutely no simpler. Okay. And there’s it. The ladder is way more powerful, way more powerful than the formal former and all the great masters focus on like like they’re always like trying to claw their way past the forest, past the trees and get to. Okay, yeah, but what’s really at the center of this? Okay. And so like Einstein came up with equals M.C. squared, which actually means energy equals matter times. The speed of light times the speed of light. Mm hmm. Okay. And, you know, you can show it to a seventh grader and a good science teacher can explain it to a seventh grader, and a seventh grader can actually understand it, but it’s incredibly powerful.

Bronson: Mm hmm.

Perry: Okay. Say the.

Bronson: Least.

Perry: Okay. Now, everything that you really, really, really want to know if you’re wise is like that. Okay, you know, the Book of Proverbs in the Bible, there are so many. Just, like, beautiful little things in there, like a soft answer turns away wrath. But harsh words stir up anger. Well, when you’re pissed at some. It’s really easy to forget that if you could go down to a calm, quiet tone of voice and just like be slow and deliver it and listen to him, like it’ll probably go away, right? Or you could turn it into Iraq if you want. So, like, which way do you want it? Right. It’s like these really simple things. And so and so what 8020 sales and marketing is, is that most people only fortunately. Elise I think most business people have heard of 8020. They have some idea what it is and it certainly does some, some good. Okay, that’s great. But they only understand it at that surface level. And what what this book is about is that 8020 is one of the core fundamental principles of literally the universe.

Bronson: Mm hmm.

Perry: Okay. It is absolutely everywhere. And if I can flip a switch in your brain by getting you to read my book to where all of a sudden you see 8020. When you look out the window, you see 8020. When you read a spreadsheet, you see 8020 in your email box, you see 8020 in your marketing plan, you see 8020 in your sales video when all of a sudden, like, I flipped that on and you see it everywhere, all of a sudden you will start functioning differently. Everything you do. Everywhere you go. And, and. And now so think about. Okay, so I read a Google AdWords book and I read a Facebook book. And and what those books are, those books are here you got this Google account, you got this website. So do this, do this, do this. And you make money. Right? And it is mostly taught like from that surface level and then kind of trying to work its way down. Mm hmm. But what I did with the 8020 book, see what all those books really were. I mean, in all honesty, I came to I said, I’m going to apply 8020 to Google AdWords. And that’s what’s going to happen. And the result was the entire ultimate guide to Google AdWords, which is a bestseller now. Right. I’m going to apply 8020 to Facebook. And what does that mean when you actually carry it out? Right. And so, like, for example, the entire Google AdWords book is built on the premise that 95% of your traffic comes from 5% of your keywords. 95 five it’s not 80/20, 95 five.

Bronson: Idea.

Perry: Rate. Therefore, you can get 95% of the results by doing 5% of the work. So this is the work you do and this is what you focus on, and this is this huge part that you ignore. Yeah. What I decided to do with the 8020 book was, okay, I’m going to show them, I’m going to show everybody the secret sauce. I’m going to show everybody the thinking that got me the last two bucks.

Bronson: Yeah.

Perry: And and I. It’s like, here is the man behind the curtain. Okay. And and so I’m going to start from equals M.c squared, and I’m going to work my way to atomic bombs instead of going the other way, you know, the other way.

Bronson: Around.

Perry: Okay. And and that is what that book really is. And and I, you know, if I if I may be so bold, I dare say it is the only marketing book that you’ve probably bought this year or read this year that will still be 80 to 90%. True, 25 years from now, this book will still be good. It’ll be good reading and good advice. It’ll get you immediate results as well as good long term results. 20 years from now.

Bronson: We’ll look at this and learn about a tactic on the fringe. It’s about the core of growth in business, which is relevant for long beyond 2014.

Perry: Right, because 8020 is everywhere. 8020 applies to the size of stars and planets, and it applies to the size of craters on the moon. It applies to sap in tree branches. And it’s it’s because. It’s because. Cause it’s a rule, it’s a law of cause and effect. There is a law that says that 20% of what you do will produce 80% of the results. And it’s true in the universe and it’s true in your spreadsheets and it’s true in your computer and it’s true everywhere. So if I can get everybody to see that they’re automatically going to sweep half of what they’re doing completely off the table, hopefully 80 or 90% will just completely get swept off the table and you’ll be left with like, dude, you don’t even know how powerful that other 10% actually is. And this is what people don’t know. They don’t know that 1% of what they do produces 50% of what they get. Yeah, those tiny little.

Bronson: Focus on that. See, when you’re doing everything, you don’t get to focus. So you don’t get to explode the power in that 1% or in that 10%. But if you stop doing the 80, you stop doing the 90. You start focusing focus just you know, it allows things to really get crazy.

Perry: It does. It does. And so and so, you know. So I put that out, you know, my my brother in law said, men like you like I think you told him everything. Like, why is anybody going to you know. But, you know, the funny thing is, is the book brings us $50,000 consulting gigs. Why? Because, you know, people don’t want to have to do everything themselves or figure out everything for themselves. So it’s it’s great.

Bronson: Okay, let’s make this practical now. Like, I think we’ve sold them that 80/20 in the universe, and it’s super important, but we haven’t really helped them figure out what to do with their business yet. Right. Is it really just a matter of them looking at what’s going on their business and saying, look, these are the few things that are working. Everything else is costing us. These things are bringing us money in. Let’s just focus on those. Or is it more complicated and nuanced than that when you actually look at a business?

Perry: Well, so so the the thing that people don’t realize is is that. 8020s multiply together. Okay. All right. What does that end in snow? What does that mean? Well, first of all. The there there’s the 80 and there’s the 20, but there’s also the 8020 of the 8020. So if I if I if I take my if I get a thousand sales people and I go, well, 200 of them produce 80% of the sales. True. Yep. Almost guaranteed to be true. The 200 will generate 80% of your sales. Well, so those 200 that are left. 80% of the sales comes from 20% of them rate and then 80% comes from 20% of them. So actually what that means is like half of your sales comes from five or something or ten or ten or five or ten or 20 like this huge amount of results comes from a very small part. Well, so, so we do like 8020 squared or 8020 cubed and we get down to this 1%. But what people don’t realize is, okay, now, now is when you need to add fuel to the fire, because the fact that those salespeople are so effective means that every dollar you invest in making them more effective will be exponentially more valuable than what you would invest in anybody else. So what does that mean you need to do? Well, it needs you need to send them to training and you need to train them on what they’re already good at. It means you need to start beating them up for all the stuff they’re not good at, like filling out expense reports or whatever it means you you probably should hire them. A couple of assistants and a travel agent and a chauffeur, and if necessary, a personal organizer or somebody to follow them around and pick up their clothes out of hotel rooms or whatever.

Bronson: Mm hmm.

Perry: Okay, great. And and that’s I mean, if you’ve lived in corporate America, you know, that’s the exact opposite of what they do. Yeah. You know, they throw sand in their wheels and they bog him down, and they harass them, and they torture them and, you know, and they berate them and all this kind of stuff, like, look, if the guy is good at closing, then let’s just get him closing, right? And feed him all the marketing, all the leads that they need and don’t resent it. Right. Okay. So that’s like one really powerful thing, but now let’s multiply it again because now let’s look at your product links. Let’s say that you’ve got a thousand products. Well, guess what? 50% of your sales probably come from ten. Yeah, right. So now, like, I’ll guarantee you, if you’re not really ruthless about 80, 20, you’re, you’re spending all this product development money and all, all this time and stuff and on products that are not anywhere near the top 1%, whereas it’s like, well, we’ve got, we’ve got a thousand salespeople and we have 100,000 customers and we have a thousand products. But when you intersect all those things together, there’s probably five salespeople, five products and five customers that all just those few combinations are like a third of your revenue.

Bronson: Yeah.

Perry: Radius impulse. And so now yeah. We’re going to dramatically simplify. Now you go, well, you know, this super big customer has been complaining about this one issue with this product for years and we never got around to it. You know, if we actually solved that, they would buy twice as much, right? Yeah. And so like and it’s always there. And again, people don’t realize when you take energy away from that 80% and you feed it into the 4%, the 1%, the 0.5%, that that tippy top effectiveness. It is so incredibly powerful.

Bronson: Yeah. Well, one of the insights that I’m walking away with is this idea that simple things are probably the right things. It’s just the way the universe is built. Like you mentioned, Einstein. Like what? What’s the chances that equals EMC squared actually describes a piece of the universe? I mean, that’s obscenely, you know, improbable. That’s something that’s simple. Actually describes the universe accurately. But you would expect it to take up a whole sheet of paper of small writing, and it doesn’t. And then with business, as business has a lot of inputs and a lot of outputs and a lot of energy being expended, a lot of, you know, things happening, you’re probably doing it wrong. The simpler things probably actually describe the best version of the universe better.

Perry: Well, yes. And I’m by education. I’m an electrical engineer.

Bronson: Yeah.

Perry: And I can attest to you that everything in physics is simple. Okay. Now, when it multiplies exponentially in complexity, when you start combining things together. Right? Pretty soon you’re in organic chemistry in your biology and it’s like, Whoa. Okay. But so like, there’s a if, if, if you want a geek moment, go to Google Images, type in Maxwell’s equations, and you’ll, you’ll see these four little equations in calculus, and you probably won’t know what they mean, but they completely describe all light, electricity and magnetism. And in effect, there’s t shirts that go in God, said Maxwell’s equations. And there was light. And it’s absolutely true right there. Actually, even if you don’t understand them, you can see they’re kind of symmetrical and they’re elegant and they’re beautiful. And you could put them on a T-shirt. You can. Yes, you can put the laws of light and magnetism on a T-shirt right now. If you get that, if you get that, this is how the universe really is and you get that business, it’s actually the same way you then that doesn’t mean you figured out the simplicity, but it means you know where to look. And you know that if the equation is nine miles long, it’s wrong. And the great the great scientist said this, too, okay? Like, if it’s not beautiful, if it’s not simple, I know it’s wrong. And it’s so like, this is such a mindset. Shift is so different then, you know, it’s like stop loss. 90% of the people you’re listening to, you should not be listening to 90% of stuff you’re doing, you should not be doing. And life becomes so much simpler. It is so beautiful. And I’m not saying it’s easy. Was it easy for Einstein to come up with that? Well, I think he had to stretch his brain cells really far. And you read the books and like he’s imagining that he’s on a train and the train’s going 99%, the speed of light. And he’s he’s bowling a bowling ball down the middle of the train. But, you know, but it’s really cool, right? And it produces this beautiful thing.

Bronson: He stayed with the problem long enough to find the simple solution. And we stop in business while things are still extremely complex, we don’t have the the something inside of us, the grit to get to the simple, pure, you know, easy equation that describes everything. And we actually not, is it? It’s not only that we don’t understand 8020, it’s that we actually think 2080 is the right way. We actually feel good when we’re really busy and we feel good when there’s so much going on that we’re investing in everything. And, you know, I think about Jack Welch, you know, he goes in a G and he says, if we’re not number one or number two in a market, kill the line. We don’t need to be in it. And that’s that’s 8020 think and even though he didn’t use that language I think about the book at his read mastery you know and it’s that same idea that these masters are masters, not because they got complicated on the fringe, but because they got to the equation that mattered and then expanded out from there. And it’s just such a mindset, a mindset shift, just like you’re saying, is it possible to make this shift or do you just have to have somebody like Steve Jobs around you doing it for the organization because he knew this? He this is the way he thought and this is the way Einstein thought and this is the way Maxwell thought. It’s not the way most CEOs or entrepreneurs think. Can you change your thinking or do you just need get somebody around you that already does this?

Perry: Yes, you can change your thinking. And here’s the proof. Okay? I, I, I need to like make an Alcoholics Anonymous confessional that I like complexity. I remember when I was four years old, I got a hammer and I broke open my dad’s transistor radio because I wanted to see the wires and circuits inside.

Bronson: Mm hmm.

Perry: Okay. Now, of course, he was really upset about this, and I got in trouble for ruining his his radio, but I’m like, Oh, this is so cool. Look at all those little parts in there, right?

Bronson: Mm hmm.

Perry: Okay, I. I like complicated things, you know? Right. Like, oh, and then I could add this, and then I could add this, and then I could add this. But, um, I also have learned that once I make it all complicated, it, maybe it, and probably it does work. I build this giant Rube Goldberg machine and eventually, like, I do, actually get the thing to work as we all do. Right. Okay, now, Perry, simplify it.

Bronson: Makes it easier to get to the simple.

Perry: Right strip away. Okay, so how could you rebuild this thing with one fifth the parts. Could you do that, like. Mm. With a lot of thought. Yes, you can.

Bronson: Mm hmm.

Perry: Okay. Now, Steve Jobs was absolutely a bitch about this, right? And you’ve read the stories, and he was not a nice guy, and he would yell at people, but he was like, why did you have seven clicks to get to that when you could have got in that too, that software menu? And two, what is your problem? Yeah, right. Usually. You know, pound the slag off of this thing and get it simpler and get it simpler and get it simpler. And, and, and it’s really, it’s, it’s just another step.

Bronson: Mhm.

Perry: And most people. Because what happens is the complicated version is usually adequate and then most people are, are happy with adequate. So like Microsoft Windows was adequate for 20 years. Mhm. Right. And then Steve Jobs is like no it’s not. Mm. This is not adequate. This is like this is like let’s not use expletives. Right. Yeah. Okay. And I’m going to fix that. Right. And he made some elegant. So now my, my daughter is using her iPad to watch videos and play games at age two and a half.

Bronson: Yep.

Perry: I think you have to be six or seven before you can use Microsoft Windows.

Bronson: You can’t use it. So. Right.

Perry: Yeah. Only the smart seven year olds can use Microsoft Windows, but all of the three year olds can use an iPad. Right. Okay. There’s a major huge lesson in that.

Bronson: Mm hmm.

Perry: Okay. So, like, okay, you made something complicated. Fine. But I want you to have c you can make something with 80% of the functionality, 80% of the value with only 20% of the parts, 20% of the cost, whatever. I’ve got a friend named Len Burton, and he has this thing called the 567 rule. 67% of the benefit of whatever you sell is 5% of the features and complexity.

Bronson: Yeah, no, I totally believe that. And one of the insights too, is that with a Rube Goldberg machine, which most companies are, it’s barely hanging together, is that there’s so many points that could fail. And at any point of failure, the whole thing breaks. Simple things are robust. Simple things. It’s hard to take down. It’s hard to destroy them. It’s hard to stop them. Complex things are actually easy to find holes in and easy to tear apart. So, I mean, I really do believe this is a fundamental piece of the universe, not just something clever for marketers to latch onto over the next few years.

Perry: Yes. So this is therefore, this is an invitation to go on as in like path of changing your mindset of everything you do. So like the 8020 book is like, Oh, you want to make more money, do this, you want to make more money, do this, and you go chapter by chapter by chapter. Oh, you want to cut out one or 2 hours out of your day and save a bunch of time, do this and this and this, and it all works and it’s very technique driven. But you understand that what I’m really inviting you on is a journey to start to see the world in this whole completely different way. Yeah, it’s like you really should read this book twice or three times or maybe every year, and. And you should, like, turn on your radar. Okay. I am looking for the simple fires, and I’m going to start I’m going to start to tell the difference. Okay? This person’s a simple fire. Good. This person’s a complex a fire ad, right? Or maybe the complex. The fire is useful up to a certain point, but you always. You have to corral them in.

Bronson: Yeah.

Perry: Right. And and if you can simplify. Okay, you know what Jesus did? He took 613 commandments and introduced him to to love God.

Bronson: Love people.

Perry: Right, right. 613 down to two. You could not get better simplification than that. Now, how profound is love, God, love people?

Bronson: It sums up everything. The entire law hangs on these two commands.

Perry: It’s it. It’s so deep. You’ll spend your whole life figure. I mean, I’m. I’m trying to figure out how to love people. I don’t know about you.

Bronson: Yeah. I mean, it’s the equals square of, you know, being a human. Yes. Yeah. And every every industry is going to have their version of that. Now, I think you’re absolutely right. And, you know, I want people are watching this to start really thinking, what is the 20%? We don’t know because we don’t know what’s going on in their business. But if they’ll look at the numbers, look at their habits, look at everything. It’s I think it is pretty obvious. And one of the things that actually helped me a lot is something I didn’t choose. But I had twins. You know, you don’t choose to have twins. You have twins and we have twins. And so I went from an eight hour work day to I work when I get a chance to. So what that meant is when I sit down on a computer to work, I have to think, what’s the 20%? If it is not the thing that moves the needle, it does not get my attention. I can’t play email games. I can’t, you know, go and read blogs and act like it’s work. Like I have to literally open the laptop and efficiently move my mouth to the thing that’s going to make me money and then shut the laptop and do stuff with the kids. And so it’s made me an 8020 person just. Because, you know, I’ve been refined by fire with, you know, twins and a five year old. At first it was hard because I was used to complication and working more. Now I will forever be a more efficient entrepreneur. I’ll never go back to a bloated lifestyle, even when I get the free time at some point in the future when they’re in college.

Perry: Right? Right. Well, and in what you just said, I had twins. See, that’s a parable for, you know, something happened to me that was out of my control, and I suddenly realized I had to make more with less.

Bronson: Yeah.

Perry: Right. And I don’t think there’s any limit to how much more you can make with less. And people people do not understand this. There’s a whole bunch of people in the world going, we’re running out of everything. We’re running out of energy. We’re running out of water. We’re running out of air. We’re running out of. Well, you know what? We’ve been running out of stuff for at least 500 years. Okay? 150 years ago is whale oil. We’re running out of whales. Yeah, we were right. And then we figure out how to use something else. Is anybody, like, heating their houses with whale oil anymore? No, no, it’s ridiculous. 100 years from now, is anybody going to heat their houses with oil? I doubt it.

Bronson: Yeah, there’s no way. Have this iteration cycle of 8020 that you mentioned earlier. You can always take it to the next level and refine again. And right now, even with the turns of the house, like, I’m not missing a beat. I mean, I’m as energized and as productive, as good of a leader and actually better in all those areas because of it. And I don’t I mean, other people are astounded by it, but it’s to me, it’s just like this is the new normal. Now I’m efficient. Yeah.

Perry: All right. Well, you know, one of my one of my favorite musicians is this drummer named Gavin Harrison. He plays for Porcupine Tree, and he’s just absolutely brilliant. And he made this comment that just really stuck with me. Is he figured out like he is not as fast. You know, he can’t play as many beats as like this guy or that guy or the other guy because you know what I could do? He goes, I could use this muscle right here, you know, and if you’re and and all the great musicians and all the great artists, that’s what they actually do, is like, how do I how do I do more with less? How do I communicate more with silence than I do by, you know, banging on that china cymbal and doing a double bass or whatever? And and and it’s it’s what makes him a genius and it’s what makes him distinctive when you listen to him. And I’m sure everybody’s favorite guitarist or their favorite conductor or whatever that you could you could say that in. And so like it really is an art. But but I guess one of the things that I there’s a whole there’s a website called a20 curve dot com and there’s a whole numbers side of the 8020 book. And what I wanted to do is I wanted to I wanted to prove to rational people who weren’t even ready for the art part, but that that they could get they could read a spreadsheet that No. 82 is infinite. It’s an infinite leverage within a finite space. And when you read the book, you’ll really actually get that, that there’s an infinite number of 80 toes inside the a20. And and, you know, it gets bigger and bigger and bigger until you get to like the last person, the last customer. And like, well, yeah, you know, customers are finite, but you can’t believe how much money they’ll spend with you if you put the right thing in front of them.

Bronson: Yeah. And even last night, Emile, one of the co-founders, we’re talking about something we’re going to do with growth after TV. And it was something that would have made us money. We made a few grand from it, and then we thought, Now it’s not the 20. Just forget it. Like it’s not worth the investment because it’s not the thing that has the real leverage. And so that’s a decision we wouldn’t have made two months ago if our our thinking is changing. All right. Let’s shift gears just a little bit. I do think 8020 is the reason this interview’s going to matter, because, like you said, it’s the thing with longevity. But you know so much about pay per click. I have to at least dove into it to talk tactics for a second, even though it’s not the the principle, it’s going to outlive us. Yeah. So Paperclip in general, you wrote the book on Google AdWords, Facebook’s ultimate guide to advertising, all that stuff pay per click in general, is it slowing down or speeding up as a growth engine for companies? How do you look at it? Because you hear both all the time, oh, it’s never been better. Oh, we can’t make a buck on it.

Perry: Well, both are true. And and so what has actually happened is that as it’s matured, it’s it’s gone from being an 8020 thing to being a 9010 thing. 90% of the success is experienced by 10% of the advertisers. And actually, what I’ve observed is almost everything on the Internet is 90, ten, 90, 80. 20. Okay. So the outsiders looking in or majorly outsiders looking in. Gotcha. And in in in when you win big on the Internet, you win huge on the Internet. Okay. And so and so this actually I wrote two completely, like totally radically brand new chapters for my fourth edition of the Google AdWords book. And what I actually taught to talk to people about in in those new chapters was Richard Caci’s concept of the star principle, because that actually tells you which pay per click market you’re going to be able to maneuver in, in which ones are going to be gridlocked. In Star Principle says you want to be the number one player in a market that’s growing 10% a year. And if you’re not the number one player, you need to find a sub niche within that market that doesn’t have a number one player that’s also growing at 20 10% a year. And and so and so it’s always about finding the growing opportunity where other people have not moved in and occupied the space. So if you’re going to sell weight loss pills and you’re going to go on Google AdWords and you’re going to advertise, well, too late. Good luck. Now you can do it if you have millions of dollars or maybe tens of millions of dollars of capital. And you can build a tremendous sales machine and you have a tremendous product. But man, doggone it, that thing better have an incredible USP. And, you know, and plus, you’re you’re still going to have all these regulatory problems and all this other stuff, whereas if you find a growing sub niche that’s really, you know, nobody’s really scratching that itch. And there is always I mean, as long as the Internet shall exist, there will be people looking for something that they can’t find.

Bronson: Mm hmm.

Perry: Okay.

Bronson: The sub niches. We’re not going to run out.

Perry: You’ll never run out of subnets. Okay, now, Facebook is now Google AdWords has gotten fairly mature. And so, like, you better know what you’re doing and you better find a sub niche where you can carve in. You can. And again, you know, in the new edition of the book, it’s coming out in about a month. You know, we go into it now with Facebook. Facebook is most of the world has not figured out how to use it. They’re still trying to get like free likes and free traffic and like all this kind of stuff. Okay. And it’s I mean, it’s a feeding frenzy in like there’s a ton of traffic in a ton of unused real estate, and it’s going to be that way for several years. So like get in while the getting is good. Yeah. Now I think a useful thing for everybody is if you go to is F B for me dot com that’s our is Facebook for you site and it’ll score you from one to turn on. Should you use Facebook by asking these questions it’ll take you a minute to answer the questions and it’ll give you a score. Oh, you’re a5f, you know you’re seven. Yeah, you know you’re a nine. Absolutely should use it. Right. We also has is a W for me is AdWords for me dot com is a W for me dot com and it’ll give you a score display network, content network, search network should use it or not. How competitive is it going to be in it? Only answer those questions. Now you should do that and it will help you and you’ll know. And if you want more explanation, you can enter your email address and we’ll tell you what your scores mean. But.

Bronson: But a marketer.

Perry: Right? Well, but but understand this that what I’m doing and giving you those tools is I’m doing 8020. And what I’m doing is I’m saying, okay, 20% of whoever comes to this page should do this and should do business with me. 80% of the people shouldn’t do this, shouldn’t do business with me. I’m going to figure out right away.

Bronson: Mm hmm.

Perry: And I’m going to eliminate I’m going to do you a favor. I am not going to try to convince you to do Facebook if it’s not going to work for you or Google. Right. So let’s find out in 60 seconds if we should even be talking and more people should do that. If you understand that sales is an elimination and disqualification process, not a convincing and wooing people process, if you can make that switch, your life is going to be so much easier. And so I want you to copy what I’m doing. Like, well, how would I do the same kind of thing for my customers? They will love you. I have had so many phone conversations where I said, You know what? I don’t think you should be giving your money. I don’t think you should buy this. First of all, they’re shocked that I didn’t take their money. And then I hear this big sigh of relief and they’re like, Well, what do you think I should do? And they know that. They know I’m going to tell them the truth. Well, guess what? If the other people know that I do that when I tell them, Dude, you got a 9.2 on that Facebook score, you should absolutely do this like yesterday. They’re going to believe me. Yeah.

Bronson: Now, that’s great. You know, you mentioned something in there called the Star Principle. And I want to get into this a little bit before we get off here, because if there’s two books that people need to read right now, I think it’s 80, 20 sales and marketing. And I think it’s the star principle. I mean, those are two that have this fundamental feel to them. I just finished the audible version of the star principal, Richard Kosh, and it’s amazing. I mean, it’s just one of those books that, you know, I can’t stop thinking about the ideas. And you went over so quick that I’m afraid people don’t realize how genius this really is. So we have to pause on it for a second. Two principles make up the star principle. One, you have to be in a market that’s growing 10% a year. And two, you have to be the leader in that niche. So it’s probably going to be a niche you’re in because you’re probably not going to be Nike in a shoe market growing 10% a year. But you can be some subset of a shoe market growing 10% a year, that kind of thing. So those are the two kind of qualifications that Richard goes through his book with. And, you know, he’s turned a few million dollars he made from consulting into a couple hundred million through just investing in companies that he thinks are what he calls stars. You know, you have the dogs which don’t, you know, do anything for you. You have the the cash cows which generate money, but they’re not really giving you that exponential return. And then you have these stars that just they are the leader in their sub niche and that niche is growing. Why are those two principles, the important principles in the star principle? And I’m asking you, because you and him are doing a lot of our business together now. So this isn’t a random question. You actually are joining up and doing a lot of cool stuff together.

Perry: Well, you know, I really kind of kicked myself because somebody sent me the star principle book several years ago, and I didn’t read it until sometime in the last year or two. But it’s like I just oh, my goodness.

Bronson: The first time I read it, I just told everybody, like, water, like stop reading and just go read this. Like, I don’t know what we’re doing.

Perry: Right. Exactly. And and like over a long period of time, I gradually became friends with Richard. And I won’t go into the story. But but what what happened was I got to go visit him in Portugal last winter. And between reading the star principal, which I already had read and then coming to see, I kind of like my mind opened up and I realized, oh my goodness, I am seriously onto something. Okay. Because I, you know, sometimes you just don’t really get the scope of what somebody is doing or what they’re about until you get a chance to talk to him. Like it hadn’t all clicked. You know, there are not very many people out there who can consistently and regularly reduce very complex things down to their simple essence. But that is what he is all about. That’s what he’s been about for 40 years.

Bronson: Of this line of business.

Perry: I think that’s apt. Okay. And I’m going to I’m going to quote you on that.

Bronson: You can you can have that with I mean.

Perry: I will.

Bronson: I will not complicated. His book is not complicated and it’s equals squared. There’s the formula. But it is so genius when you see how well it works.

Perry: Right. Well, and so so let me tell you a little bit of the story. So I had you know, I had done my homework. I’d like read all six of his books and I get there and like I read all six year books. He’s like, Well, in six books, I’ve written 20. Like what? He takes me over to this clause. He’s like, you know, it’s like the author, like, well, here, you know, you can have one of these, you can have one of these, you know, takes them to the table. And he signed them for me. You know, he’s really gracious. And I’m look at all these books. I’m like, Well, I’ve never seen this one. Like, I don’t even think this is on Amazon. Well, he’s in Europe and some of the stuff hasn’t even made it over here. And he’s not a publicist and he’s not a drum beater. And so, like, he’s like the world’s most underrated author. And I’m like, I agree. There’s this book, Suicide of the West. And it’s like this whole tour of Western civilization. There’s another book called The Natural Laws of Business, which is like, so where’s the. Equals M.c squared in business and where’s natural selection in in you know, in in commerce. And what about Newton’s laws? It’s like this really like crazy. And I start reading all this. I’m like, Oh, my goodness. Okay, so like, okay, I found a serious Einstein like person here and like, dude, I’m like, sitting with them by the pool and we’re having lunch. This is awesome, right? Um, and, and, but then also, like, okay, he only works an hour a day. And again, I had to be there in person to really get it. Mm hmm. Like, okay, so if a guy says in his book, I work an hour a day, you don’t believe in. Right. Like four hour workweek? Does Tim Ferriss do work 4 hours a week? No, you can you can you can figure out that he’s betraying himself, like just by, you know, reading his blog or something. Right. Okay. So, like, it’s it’s in I don’t fault him for it. I mean, it’s a great title and everything, but it’s an aspiration. No, Richard. Richard is a hard ass about like you only works an hour a day. Okay. You know, and so, like, we go there and, you know, I’ve been there twice and and the second time it took a video guy, you know, and after shooting video for about an hour and 15 minutes, he’s like, We’re done, right? I’m like, Well, I was going to he’s like, we’re done. And like, I’m going to a bike ride, see? Uh huh. And, like, he’s he’s he. He won’t. You’ll learn this, like, no, like, I only work in our day. So, like, now I’ll write my books and I’ll read books and I’ll research stuff and, like, do what I want and I’ll ride my bike and I’ll walk my dog in the beach. But I’m only working on my business one hour a day.

Bronson: I have to tell people the reason he’s able to do that is because he’s not focusing on the aid. He’s not seeing the forest and missing the trees like he is literally seeing the fundamental laws of business and just applying levers to those and ignoring all the noise. He’s like you said, he’s not a publicist. He doesn’t care if you know who he is. He still is going to make a couple of million dollars because he’s actually focusing on those laws and not on please, everybody know my name because that’s not what makes him money.

Perry: Right. So so, you know, between between, you know, last winter when I went to see him and now, you know, he’s crossed the quarter of a billion mark in net worth. And his income is his wealth is going up like 20, 25% a year. That’s really impressive. And so like so we get into this conversation, I’m like, so now I get it. Mm hmm. Right. It’s like, okay, Richard, you got a professional copywriter. Show up and figure out what the real story is like. This almost kind of happened by accident, but like, Richard, like, dude, you really have something here, and, like, I’m trying to get him to see you. Like, because this is normal to him. I mean, he knows not everybody does this, but he doesn’t know how to tell his own story because, you know, he’s the fish in water. I’m like, dude, we really have something here. So, you know, and we had been talking about doing an 8020 seminar and like scrap this 8020 seminar, we’re going to start principal seminar. Yeah. Because like, you know, it.

Bronson: Just process is what it is.

Perry: It does reduce the two things. But, you know, there are a lot of little nuances to it and you do really need to know the whole formula and not just this little part of it, you know? So, you know, if you’re going to learn 100% of something, learn to learn 100% of the 1% that really works. Not, you know, 80% of like this massive quagmire of stuff that kind of works great. And so so we decided to do that. So we’re doing that September 28, 230 in Chicago. And it’s not cheap. And and but I’m telling you, if you’re, you know, if if you make a good income and you run a business and, you know. This will save you from so many rabbit trails that wouldn’t have really turned into a big business.

Bronson: So I can tell you this right now, we have I haven’t said this on the show at all, but my team is working on something. And we had a list of possible ideas. We listened to the star principle and we got rid of all of them but one. And it was the obvious one that could be a star. And it was so obvious. We had so much clarity about the direction of our business, so much clarity about what product to produce next and so much peace of mind about it because of the star principle that now we are all in 100% in this one singular direction, and there’s no doubt about it, it’s going to work out just fine.

Perry: Yeah.

Bronson: It changed our business, so.

Perry: And it’s really good. And the thing is, is we all. Most of us at least know what it’s like before we’re successful at all.

Bronson: Mm hmm.

Perry: Half the problem is we just don’t even know what it looks like, feels like or smells like to be successful. So we’re just throwing darts.

Bronson: And that’s what the book does. It lets me smell it because he walks you through his anecdotes of what he invested in and the story arc. And it’s those story arcs that I actually remember. I remember the restaurant that he built. You know, I remember the different businesses he was in and how it felt from his point of view, which makes it all just click. So, yeah, well, I don’t want to take too much more your time. I mean, this has been such an awesome interview. I mean, from the 8020 stuff to the little bit of paperclip we got into and then the ending with the star principal. I know there’s only so many things people, you know, walk away with from this. I got one more question that I always in the interviews with ask it of all the guests. And it’s a high level, vague questions. You can kind of take it any direction you want, but it is what’s the best advice you have for any startup that’s trying to grow? I’m guessing I might know what yours is, but I’ll ask it anyway.

Perry: Know thyself. And in the 8020 book, I have this thing called the marketing DNA test and it’s $37. But there’s a back door in the book where you can get it for four free because you bought the book and. I created that because. I spent so long in my sales career trying to pound my square pegs into round holes, and I was the square peg. And that is very, very painful.

Bronson: Mm hmm.

Perry: Okay. And what I realized, it took me a long time for this to come together. So it was like you go through the Rube Goldberg machine, and then eventually you make it simple again. I came to understand that there are eight different ways that people sell or the eight different ways that people can sell. And most people just use two or three of them.

Bronson: Okay.

Perry: Okay. Some people are what I call hostage negotiators and you just like throw them in a situation and they they manage to see something that gets the person to buy the thing or solves the problem. There’s other people they sell with analysis and facts. Mm hmm. Right. There’s other people that sell by writing. There’s other people that sell by. By inventing something brand new that you’ve never seen before and like being MacGyver. There’s some people that sell with just pure emotion and heart strings in. And I reduced this down and I made this this thing. And it’s so you can it’s in the 8020 book and you can take this. And most people say it nails them and it says, okay, this is how you sell. This is who you should be selling to. This is what you should be selling. And, like, don’t try to screw with anything else. But more generally. More generally. You aside from Perry’s little test or anything like that, you really have to know what your own genius says, because everybody’s got their weird little dysfunctional form of genius. And it’s almost impossible to recognize it from inside your own skin, because it just seems normal to you. But you must know, what are you really good at? And what should you eliminate however you do it? Yeah. Outsource it. What ever. Because most of us, frankly, are surveillance. So you know what? Deal with it, acknowledge it, celebrate it, and, like, back in your own skin.

Bronson: Yeah, that is awesome advice to end on. So, Perry, again, thanks for coming on Growth Hacker TV.

Perry: Hey, thank you very much. And you just go to my website, you can find the book and you can find our event and we’d love to have you.

Bronson: So absolutely. What’s the website again?

Perry: Perry Marshall dot com. Most of the 20 book offer and you’ll see the star principal link and let’s let’s be friends.

Bronson: Thanks again.

Perry: Thank you.

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