Ryan Holiday 2

Ryan Holiday

Ryan Holiday is an American author, modern Stoic, public-relations strategist, owner of the Painted Porch Bookshop and host of the podcast The Daily Stoic. Prior to becoming an author, he served as the former director of marketing and eventually an advisor for American Apparel.

Ryan Holiday’s recent book “The Obstacle is the Way’ has become the NFL’s unofficial Bible, yet is not sports specific. Learn how he was able to create such an impact in an unlikely place….and what I believe is even more fundamental for GHTV members than marketing.


  • Relation to entrepreneurship
  • Importance to entrepreneurs compared to marketing
  • The book “The Obstacle is the Way” is about seeing obstacles as opportunities
  • It emphasizes the idea of controlling how one responds to obstacles, not the obstacles themselves
  • Encourages a positive, growth-oriented mindset toward obstacles
  • Suggests that this approach is more entrepreneurial and can help one persevere through adversity
  • It emphasizes that people have the power to adapt and improvise, despite limited control over the world
  • The book includes memorable examples of unique, inspiring, and off-beat ways of dealing with obstacles
  • And a whole lot more





Bronson: Welcome to another episode of Growth Hacker TV. I’m Bronson Taylor and today I have Ryan Holiday with us again. Ryan, thanks for coming back on the program.

Ryan: Yeah, this is my third time. It’s good to be back.

Bronson: I think so. I think you. You’re the winner now. You have more appearances on growth actor TV than anyone.

Ryan: I would not have expected that, but. Okay, I’ll take it.

Bronson: Yeah, it’s good stuff. Well, you know, you’re a longtime friend of the show because mainly because you wrote two books around marketing. You wrote Growth Hacker Marketing, and you wrote, Trust me, I’m Lying. And I’m a huge fan of both those books, and I think they’re must reads for this audience. But here’s what’s interesting new last book, The Obstacle Is the Way is not a marketing book. It’s not a start up book. It’s not an entrepreneurship book. But I think it might even be more important to our audience because it deals with things are even more fundamental to entrepreneurship than marketing is. And so I really just want to get into your new book, The Obstacle Is Away, and I think the audience is just going to love this interview. Sounds good to you.

Ryan: Sounds great.

Bronson: All right. So the obstacle is the way as entrepreneurs, we hear the word obstacle and we’re familiar with that. But that is the life of an entrepreneur. So tell us at a high level, what does the title mean? The obstacle is the way.

Ryan: Yeah. So it’s actually based on truth. And so there’s a line in stone philosophy from the Emperor Marcus Aurelius. And he says the impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes really what he what he’s saying that in stoicism, the idea is you don’t control the outside world. You control how you respond to it. Right. So you don’t control that there is an obstacle that you you control that you’re going to respond and you’re going to make the most of this this given scenario that you’re in. And then on the other side of things, there’s a Zen saying the obstacle is the path, which essentially means whatever is blocking your path is creating a new path that you might not have originally intended. And so it’s this sort of fuzing of east and west. And the idea to me, what I what the obstacle is the way means to me is that when something happens, usually like a bad thing, really bad habits that you might not want it to happen. What it is offering you is an opportunity to do something about something that you wouldn’t have intended. But it’s still an opportunity for excellence in one form or another, right? So like in the simplest level, you’re stuck in traffic. You can get frustrated or you can say, okay, now I have a couple minutes to to think or to make a phone call or whatever, right down to the most practical level. And then the other, it’s like, you know, you’re dealing with some sort of extreme form of adversity and you’re saying, you know, this is going to toughen me up. This is I’m going to persevere through this. I’m going to come out the other side, a stronger person. So it’s this it’s just this idea that you can see the bad things that happened to you in your life as bad, or you can see them as opportunities. And what is a much more entrepreneurial approach?

Bronson: Yeah, I know. It makes a lot of sense. I mean, it’s almost like you’re changing a relationship to obstacles by default. We think obstacle. That’s a bad thing. Let’s get bombed out when they happen. Let’s get rid of them if we can. You’re saying you actually don’t control most of the obstacles in your life? It’s not like you can willed them away just because you don’t want them to be there. So let’s find a new relationship to it that’s positive and actually helps us.

Ryan: Yeah. And look, this is not my idea. This is this is what philosophy is about. It’s this idea that we are much we are both much less powerful than we think we are in terms of, you know, our ability to control the world. But then ultimately we have this great power in that we always have the ability to adapt and improvise and persevere. And so I think that what I’ve always taken from so is that idea. It’s like instead of being this person that’s trying to remake the world in your image, how can you be so adaptable and flexible that there really isn’t anything that can happen to you that wouldn’t advance your interests in one form or another?

Bronson: Absolutely. I would just listen to Bruce Lee the other night. He said, be like water. And he was just like, you know, the water becomes the container. It becomes the vessel that it’s in. It takes advantage of the constraints and still is itself.

Ryan: Yeah, I think that’s exactly right. There’s a lot of overlap between Eastern and Western philosophy in that in that sense. And so I think to me it means that they’re both honing in on some sort of central truth.

Bronson: Yeah, I think you’re absolutely right. So what are some of the memorable examples in the book where you give an example of like, look, here’s an obvious obstacle and here’s how it was dealt with in a way that is unique or inspiring or kind of off the wall or whatever.

Ryan: Yeah. So so the book is about Marcus Aurelius. He’s obviously the most powerful man in the world at that time. He’s the emperor of Rome. And he sort of come up with this formula, which is from Stoicism. And then I illustrate that with ideas from other people who may or may not have actually been so, but are body and stoic ideas. Sure. You know, I tell the story of John Rockefeller. He as a young man who he dealt with. One of the worst financial crises in American history the past 1857. And he sort of saw it as his apprenticeship rises, seeing it as a chance to learn about the market at its worst. And he he later he says, like, this whole period was my apprenticeship in the markets, basically. And so, you know, I love that idea because, you know, you and I were about the same age. We graduated not only into the sort of the first financial crisis and in 2007, 2008. And then now the markets started to look a little rocky. Ours is doing our our starters, having to race down around what did you know? And so your first impulse could be, this is terrible. This is the worst thing that happened. And I’m totally screwed out of everything. But what does that accomplish? Very little, right? Or if you can do what the Stoics do, which is to say, you know, sort of control your perceptions to see things objectively. And in fact, we know entrepreneurs tend to make tons of money when when the when the markets turn, because this is where this is when all the lightweights leave. This is where people who don’t control their perceptions, people who who are sort of either irrationally exuberant or irrationally bearish. This is when this is when they get screwed. And if you can if you can see, you know, these sort of fluctuations as temporary, which they often are, if you can not make them worse by overreacting, if you can say, hey, this is what the market needed to to maintain its healthiness, this is this is sort of like the temporary forest fire and all these things. This is how you end up not only strengthening yourself, but strengthening your own position and potentially emerging from it stronger than you were before. So it’s sort of stories like that. You know, I talk about Thomas Edison, talk about, you know, Roosevelt, Amelia Earhart, Ulysses S Grant. I’m illustrating with stories. But basically, it’s just this idea that most of the great men and women from history have responded to obstacles this way. And if they hadn’t, we probably wouldn’t have heard of them.

Bronson: Yeah, no, that’s awesome. And I love the idea that entrepreneurs, when it comes to the obstacles, the obstacles are a filter and that if you can get through them and you can find yourself on the other side of those obstacles, then that means you belong. And if you can’t find a way through, it’s not that life was harder for you. It’s that you’re not a real entrepreneur.

Ryan: Sure, I look and I think about this too. It’s like if writing a book was easy or if books were automatically successful, then a lot more people would do it and it wouldn’t be as lucrative or as rewarding as it ultimately is. And so I sort of it’s a scarcity is what creates value, right? Difficulty is what creates scarcity. And so I think that’s a good way to see it, is that this is when you’re going through something tough. You can see it as a winnowing out, like Marcus realized he has this line. I don’t forget that number exactly. But he’s saying, like you can say is like you can say this is unfortunate that this has happened or you can say it’s fortunate that this has happened to me because I’m able to deal with it. And, you know, you got to choose which person you want to be.

Bronson: And that’s a radically different way to perceive the world. I mean, this isn’t like a little off from normal. This is like radically different than the normal. Joe out there sitting home, zoning out, watching cable every night. Like this is why the winners think this way, because it’s extremely rare.

Ryan: Sure, it’s extremely rare. What I say in the book, too, is like this is very these are very simple ideas, but that doesn’t mean they’re easy. So this is the idea of seeing a situation that everyone else sees as negative as a positive is very simple but incredibly difficult to do in practice. And, you know, it’s not like, oh, hey, I read this book, I read this quote, and now everything’s different. You work for it and you fail. You fail at it probably more times than you succeed at it. But it’s there. It’s there for you when you need it. Absolutely. The most, like when you are doubting yourself and everything around you. That’s where these ideas have their most, I think, the most power.

Bronson: So let me ask you this. You know, I think about my own life and I feel like I’m very stoic in this regard. Like I see obstacles as a filter. And I may not put it in the eloquent language that you do, but deep inside, like I feel this way about the hardships of life. But I also feel like I don’t know if I could have read a book and learned these things. I almost feel like it’s my childhood is the difficulties I’ve been through already. It’s a part of my DNA. Do you think people can actually grow in the way they perceive the world, or is it just kind of stuck with who you are?

Ryan: I think look, I don’t think anyone is magically born with like this power. I just don’t think that that makes sense. There’s this great line from Plutarch where he’s saying, you know, do you learn? Do you learn? Do you get your experiences from books or do you understand your experiences through books? Writing is here so you get your knowledge from your life. Experiences, but it’s reading and learning that helps you synthesize what those things are and come to an understanding about them. So yeah, you know, again, you can understand this stuff in theory, but unless you’ve actually been in a situation as an entrepreneur where everything went to shit or you’ve been in a situation as a as a person where, you know, you saw the cruel hand of Murphy’s Law and everything that could go wrong. Go wrong. It does. You don’t totally get it. But over time, I think not not only over time do I. Do I think, you know, anyone can kind of understand this, but I think the longer you do this, the longer you you you’re engaged in some venture where your success or failure depends on you and your attitude. Yeah. The easier it gets over time. So. Yeah, I agree with that.

Bronson: Yeah, I think we’re like a rubber band. Like it doesn’t stretch much at first, but if you keep stretching it to the limit, the limits grow as you stretch it. And so I think people are the same way. If they got a late start in life by pushing the boundaries of what they can do, they’re not stretched as far, but they could be if they start embracing the obstacles.

Ryan: Yeah. And look, I think that’s that’s one of the things I’ve thought about, too. Whenever you’re going through some, like, sort of tough thing. I like to think it’s like, okay, I’m I’d rather be going through it right now than to have had an easy time because I think it’s inevitable that things will go wrong. Right. So I would rather experience as much that can go wrong now when I do something about it and to, you know, there’s this sandstorms make better sailors. The last thing you would want is to get hit with a hurricane, you know, for the first time when you’re the most unprepared for it. Do you know what I mean? So like, in some ways, resiliency is built through the adversity that you go through in life. And the more you have, the earlier you have, the better prepared you’re going to be for that potentially catastrophic thing down the road.

Bronson: Yeah, the title is not just a clever title. The obstacle really is the way. Like the obstacle itself is the thing that makes you better.

Ryan: Yeah, right. No, no. I mean, that that’s that’s totally it. And I think it’s one of those things where it can sound a little trite the first time you hear it. But then the more you say it and the more you think about it, I think the truer it becomes.

Bronson: Yeah. No, that’s awesome. So in this book, you break it into three sections, Perception, Action and Will. And I want everyone to go read this book. So we’re not going to give them a cliff notes synopsis of it right now. But just like a high level, walk us through perception action and Will has kind of three components of understanding. The obstacle is the way.

Ryan: Yeah. So perception action. Well, these are three disciplines of stoicism. They’re not like the only disciplines, but I think they’re the most important. So the discipline of perception, that’s how you see whatever your whatever you’re dealing with. Right. And when most of us deal with difficult things, we make it worse, right? With how we see it. We’re like, this is totally unfair. I’m completely screwed over. How could this happen to me? This never happens, right? We the stories we tell ourselves about a thing make it tougher than it actually needs to be. Right we choose but it’s don’t say is events are objective but our judgments about them are subjective. They say there is no such there is no thing there sorry. There is no good or bad, there’s only perception. So you might as well control those perceptions in such a way that you can see the events as they objectively are rather than what other people say they are. Whatever your fears are, emotions might sit there.

Bronson: And I love you to said the story we tell ourselves about the events because all day long we’re walking around with a story in our head about the object of events. But the story is very subjective about how we view those events, like you just said. And I think that’s one of the things I’ve learned. If I can tell myself the right story, I’ll win. If I tell myself the wrong story, I’ll lose.

Ryan: Sure. It’s I didn’t just think about a good example. It’s like you’re quitting your job or you getting fired or laid off from your job. Objectively, it’s the same thing. You don’t work there.

Bronson: Exactly.

Ryan: But but those are what is it? Empowering narrative. And one is a disempowering narrative. And obviously, I’m not saying you just make your own reality, but you this story, you tell yourself about an objective that determines how its role in your life. And there’s more.

Bronson: There’s more flexibility in the story than people realize. Like, it’s not that we’re saying A is B and black is white, but we are saying, look, there’s a range of perception options. Let me choose one that benefits me.

Ryan: Yeah, exactly. And that leads into action, right? Stoicism is not the secret. It’s not magically wishing things to be other than what they are. But it’s now that you have this objective interpretation, okay, what are you going to do about it? Right. Are you going to act on this thing with. Persistence. Are you going to do the right thing, even though that might be harder than doing the wrong thing? Are you going to be. Are you going to get stuck in, you know, the way things are supposed to be done? Or are you going to be able to be pragmatic and and creative about that thing? So. So actions are what you do about it, right? Like I tell the story of Eisenhower in the book, you know, he’s able to sort of understand the the the fear based components of the blitzkrieg attack and sort of see an opportunity inside of it. But then he ultimately has to win that battle. So he’s able to see it differently, come up with a strategy. But then he has to execute on that strategy ultimately, or the perception doesn’t matter. Then the final part that we bring to bear on these is the will and the stoic definition of will is not, you know, not the same as willpower, although they’re somewhat similar. The Stoics are a big part of Stoicism, is accepting that things you can’t change. Right. And so one of those is just the role that you see adversity playing in your life. Like if you’re like, Hey, life is going to be hard. It’s not going to be how I want it to be all the time. But I’m tough enough and I’m prepared for that. That’s obviously going to make a lot of this easier. And then I think my favorite idea of the will is this this concept of a more face, which is sort of a lot of what happens. That’s what it loosely translates for a love of B and it’s this idea of when when you face challenges or you face difficulties, like all your work gets erased, you know, how are you going to see that afterwards? Are you going to see this as, you know, the universe picking on you, or are you going to see this as, you know, something that you’re able to overcome? Do you have that sort of indomitable will to persevere? Like I see persistence as an action and perseverance as a matter of will. And perseverance is ultimately the skill that matters most.

Bronson: Yeah. And I mean, you put these three together, perception action and Will, and it’s so easy to see how empowering they are. It’s so easy to see how these successful men and women have embodied these things, whether they call themselves stoic or not, because obviously these are the things successful people do.

Ryan: Right. I mean, it would be hard to come up with a successful person not thinking about these things. Yeah. That that work. You know, obviously there are sort of like right, right place, right time, but that is not a particularly stable form of success and it’s not repeatable.

Bronson: I can’t learn from it. I can’t learn from luck.

Ryan: Right, exactly. So when you’re talking about consciously sort of trying to deal with things, I think this is the way to think about it. Yeah.

Bronson: Then, you know, really interesting things about this book because I’ve been kind of following it since it came out, is it’s become the unofficial Bible of the nflx. You see, like whole teams. It’s certainly. Yeah. Like, you know, here’s this guy on growth out of TV, writing, marketing books. And then he comes out with a book that like the NFL is like, can’t get enough of what happened there. How does that how does that happen?

Ryan: So I don’t know how it happens totally. But, you know, you write for one audience. I think what’s interesting is that you try to nail an audience that you’re close with and sometimes you don’t realize that those same truths respond. You don’t work for other audience. It’s like my mentor, Robert GREENE. He wrote, you know, this book about power, which is sort of a nerdy, historical take on, like, the Art of War and all these other books. And then all of a sudden it’s like fusion and hip hop and like, that’s never what he could have predicted by hand. It’s like sometimes you can speak to an audience that you weren’t necessarily intending to speak to. And I think what I like, I was trying to take, you know, I think business books are always so tactical about business. I was trying to take some more timeless principles and apply them to the business. And it turns out that those timeless principles actually apply really well and to to the world of athletics. And what happened was, you know, I was featured on some blog and one NFL coach read the book and he liked it and he passed it to other coaches and then players and then, you know, it was just this thing. And, you know, now, obviously, we once you start once you start to see something like that going, the role of a marketer or an entrepreneur is to obviously pour as much fuel on that fire as possible. And it’s really taken off. But ultimately, like last year, both the Seahawks and the Patriots read the book to the two teams in the Super Bowl, which is, you know, not at all what I expected when I sold my business publisher a book about ancient philosophy. But I’ll certainly take it.

Bronson: That’s awesome. You know, and this is something we talked about before we started recording, but I said I want to talk about at the end of the interview, because there’s something here. You know, this has been your most successful book, but you had the least control of this book in terms of marketing. It’s taken on a life of its own. It’s found its way into niches and verticals like the NFL that you didn’t really plan for. With your press releases and yet it’s the most successful. What is the takeaway there as a marketer, that’s got to make us uneasy.

Ryan: Sure. Well, I mean, look, I don’t want to give myself to you. You can often tell yourself a story about something after the fact. But when I was marketing and writing this thing, I knew that I wanted to set it up for long term word of mouth success more than anything else, because ultimately books that are successful are perennially successful. This book missed The New York Times list, even though it probably sold enough copies. But it missed that copy. It missed all this the first week. And I was very disappointed. But I had I remember reminding myself, hey, when I was marketing this thing, I wasn’t marketing to have one week of success. I wanted to have a year or two years or ten years of success. And so ultimately, what I think what I think happens is, you know, you have an idea of the niche that you want to hit and you do your best to hit. And when you when you come close to it, that’s what most projects, most successful projects come close to hitting that product market a bit. And then every once in a while you really nail it. And the difference between kind of nailing it and really nailing it are enormous. Hmm. To the degree of really nailing it means it sort of takes care of itself and kind of nailing it means like, yeah, I don’t know. It’s like it’s like a car with with three functioning wheels and one kind of squeaky messed up wheel versus like, you know, great wheels. And it’s like on a downhill slope, like, why did this takes care of it? And the other one, you can get going, but you really, really have to.

Bronson: Work on it. Yeah. And so, I mean, can we sum of this up in saying product matters and if you nail product, it opens up doors you couldn’t have marketed yourself into.

Ryan: Too? I think that’s totally right. And I think I think what I take from it from a well. So one of the things I remember telling myself when I was writing the book is I want to write the absolute best book that I can. And then you understand at a certain point that the book leaves your hands and enters the world and you don’t control that part of things. Right. Like all you can do is put in the effort and then abuse your hands. And so, like I let’s say we’ve been sitting here talking in the book and I’ve been at and sold one third of as many copies. I still would have seen it as a success because I did everything that I had tried to do. Like I. I know this is the best that I could do now. Sometimes it leaves your hands, and it’s much more successful than you want it to be. I mean, one of the so things you take away from that is like, hey, this has less to do with you and more to do with external events that are, you know, outside of your control. So I think what I like because I work on my next book, which comes out in June, and one of the things I’m really working on is like you cannot tell yourself that just because you nailed the product one time, you are guaranteed or an annual be entitled to nail a product the second time. Yeah. And that you have to win an audience from scratch every single time.

Bronson: It’s kind of like the perception piece. It cuts both ways. You perceive the obstacles as things you can’t control, but you have to also perceive the successes as things that were completely engineered by you, even though, of course, you’re a factor in them. It cuts both ways.

Ryan: Yeah. Look, you know, the most prominent stoic is Marcus Aurelius is the emperor of the known world. And then the other is Epictetus, who is a former slave who had actually been banished from Rome by a different emperor. And they’re only about one generation apart. It kind of overlapped slightly, but to me, what I take from that is it’s a it’s a philosophy. It’s oriented for extreme adversity on the one hand, but extreme success on the other. Like, yeah, you have to be objective about obstacles and failures, but you also have to be objective about your lucky breaks. Like what? So one of the things that happened for this book really early on is it came out. It did okay. And then we did this promotion with Amazon where we where it was with Bob and Amazon re discounted the book for, like, one week. Mm hmm. We could go from 9000 e-book to 399, and it sold really well that week because, you know, when you take a price down to a third, it’s going to sell better. And then I don’t remember if it was like Amazon’s algorithm or if it’s a conscious decision there, but Amazon agreed to keep the price their book to full royalty anyway. So it was basically basically the book’s price was subsidized at a discounted rate for all for nearly a year. And that was a lucky break. That was outside of my control. I took advantage of it, but it was a lucky break, so I can’t. I have to be very conscious of the fact that that that could might not have happened in my book, might not have been successful had that not happened. And so I don’t I can’t I can’t take the success of the book and have it say anything about me because it says more about external random events that he does about it. Obviously, it was my decision to do the discounting and I put myself in a position to be successful. But you want to make sure that you don’t let success or failure say something about you as a person.

Bronson: Yeah. And you know, the whole quote, the harder I work, the luckier I get. It seems like people who consistently put out high quality stuff and consistently try new things end up getting luckier more than the general population. And so even though I don’t control it, they’re living the kind of life that leads to these things happening. Like you want sitting around eating cheesy poofs. You were creating deals with Amazon and writing books and marketing yourself, and then this awesome windfall happened. You know, so I think there’s something there. It’s like you don’t control it, but you’re a part of it.

Ryan: Yeah. And, and I think if you have that attitude, then on your future things, you don’t feel that you’re entitled to that or that it’s, it’s, it’s yours by right or guaranteed. So you like I know for the new book, I don’t have to come up with whatever that next thing is. Mm hmm. And, like, I also don’t take for granted, like, hey, this next book is going to magically make its way through professional sports, I have to say. Okay, why did it happen last time? What can I do that could potentially make that likely to happen again? And how can I, as I’m writing, how can I be conscious of that? You know, you want to what is that saying when fortune favors the prepared? Like you want to put yourself in a position to succeed. To succeed, but then also, you know, not live or die by that success either.

Bronson: It’s a really good way to put it. Now, you in the book with the chapter called Prepare to Start Again. It seems like this whole thing’s getting circular. What do you mean by that?

Ryan: What is it? Is circular. See, perception, action and well being a loop. Right? So you perceive something, you take action on it. You bring to bear what you can on it. And then what happens? Then you have you either succeed or fail and you have to start again or, you know, something outside your control happens or, you know, you get a verdict on that process and then it starts again. John Boy has the concept of a of an utter loop. I think it’s partly like that. There’s this Haitian saying I have in that chapter is called Behind Mountains. There are more mountains like you get to a mountaintop, you’re like, and this is it. I’m done. That’s when you realize, like, Oh, way behind this mountain was something that I didn’t even see or think about. Success comes with its own obstacles. Failure causes its own obstacles. You know, you’ve got there, you don’t magically enter the promised land and then everything is awesome. Like if we if we were to find like we’re two poles, some of the most successful poor people in the world right now, I bet their lives would be more difficult than our lives would be. Right. Like the responsibilities and burdens that come with, with with power and success.

Bronson: More money, more problems.

Ryan: Ever. Really? Yeah.

Bronson: Yeah. You know, I think about the circular thing you’re talking about. It’s like in lean startups, we have build, measure, learn, and then it don’t stop. You build more, you measure more, you learn more. And it’s circular. You know, perception action will is almost like a lean startup for the soul.

Ryan: I mean, yeah, I would never say that because that would seem that it seem super douchey across the range. But say I’m allowed to say it though. Right. Right. But but no, I think I think that’s right. You know, your like when you launch a company that’s like the first idea and then what are you doing now? You’re launching features for that product, which are just a microcosm of that same process or, you know, it’s the fractal process again. And I think that it’s like you’re dealing with ops that you’re dealing with. This idea of the obstacle was the way as your personal philosophy, and that’s step one. And then it’s like, okay, how do you apply it to technical difficulties when you’re trying to launch something to, you know, drive to work towards getting, you know, any relationship towards, you know, you’re a loved one passing away, whatever. You’re you’re always going to have the ability to apply this framework, either at a micro and macro level.

Bronson: Yeah. No, that’s also why I’m so glad to have you on the show. This has been an incredible interview. I know people are going to eat this one up. A couple last questions for you. And these are the two that end with now. They’re just kind of fun fluff questions. One is, what are you working on right after this interview is over? It can be like walking your dog. It could be something boring. It’d be something awesome.

Ryan: So if I go to lunch meeting that I have to go to and then I’m going to try this. I, I flew in from Finland last night. So I’d like Cora. We’ve had an email, so I’m going to try to bang out a bunch of emails so that after my lunch, I can. I can get back to some writing.

Bronson: Nice. All right. And the number two. What is the best advice you have for any company that is trying to grow?

Ryan: Oh, well, if I was trying to think about it in the in the context of the discussion we just had in the book, it would it would say that, yeah, it would just reiterate this idea of like, look, you don’t control what happens. You don’t control the results. You only control what you put into that thing and how you respond to it. You respond to what happens. And if you can if you can focus. So many people burn out so much of their energy, focusing on things that are outside of their control, that just narrowing that scope for you on two things that were exclusively bear bear effort, then then you will be far more effective than most people. Right? You spend less time complaining or whining or trying to move immovable objects. You will be bringing more to the things that you do control than your average person who’s spread out to do that.

Bronson: Yeah, well, just to tell you how much I’ve enjoyed this interview, I’m going to do a pre edit of it before it actually goes live on TV. And I’m going to send it to all the team members that I work with and say, Hey, listen to this because there’s stuff here. Like I want the people that I work with till I get what you’re saying. Because I feel like if they realize there are certain things they can’t change, you can’t just move mountains because you want to. But you can respond, you can perceive, you can act. You can have the will that allows you to make the most of all the difficulties that come along with a startup. Then they’re going to be so much more prepared. So hopefully I can get this out to them today so they can hear it as quick as possible.

Ryan: Well, thank you, man. It’s been really it’s been really cool to watch you grow this show. And thanks for having me on again. And I really appreciate it.

Bronson: Absolutely. All right. Have a good one, Ryan.

Ryan: All right, Sara.

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