Dave Zohrob is the CEO & Co-founder of Lookmark. Formerly he was a Venture Hacker at AngelList; founder/hacker at Megatasty, Soy Division; web developer at HOTorNOT; and a developer at Microsoft.
TOPIC DAVE COVERS
- His hacker with experience in coding and growth hacking
- One of his most successful products is LOL Quiz, which was a popular personality quiz on Twitter
- The quizzes became popular quickly with 50,000 quizzes created in multiple languages
- LOL Quiz was a viral phenomenon with millions of users and reached millions of users
- His learned about the power of viral growth, timing
- The Quiz dominated Twitter’s trending topics, but Twitter eventually shut it out
- His experience with LOL Quiz taught him about the power of traffic
- His previous work at Hot or Not may have inspired him to create similar products that generate a lot of traffic
- And a whole lot more
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READ THE TRANSCRIPTION
Bronson: Welcome to another episode of Growth Hacker TV. I’m Bronson Taylor and today I have Dave Zora with us. Dave, thank you so much for coming on the program.
Dave: Thanks for having me.
Bronson: Absolutely. Now, Dave, you are a hacker in almost every sense of the word. You hack code as a developer. And you also hack growth with some of your products. You’ve had some products you’ve been involved with that have reached some substantial scale. Let’s start with one of the biggest ones, at least as far as I can tell online. One of the biggest ones, which was LOL Quiz, you know, lower quiz dominated Twitter for a period of time. So tell us, what was Elwell Quiz?
Dave: I was a really simple, straightforward, like personality quiz, something honestly that I hopped up on a few days after it was right after Twitter opened up its platform to third party developers for applications, not just clients. Yeah, and just the work was pretty straightforward. You know, personality quizzes like, you know, ten or 20 questions, you know, what kind of Harry Potter character are you? Right. And you answer the question and you say, oh, you’re Harry Potter or whatever it is. Right. And to get it going, I basically paid a bunch of people off cards this like five bucks for quiz, right? You know, maybe 50 quizzes when I started. And then, you know, kind of put it out there. And I was also working on some other Twitter quiz stuff, Twitter apps at the time, 140 Mafia and a bunch of other things that maybe didn’t do quite as well as this one. And it just kind of ticked up on its own, honestly. It was like, you know, pretty straightforward viral loop, right? You take the quiz, it says like, oh, you’re her myeni or whatever it is. And at the end he tweeted out, And then all your friends here, and they go on to quiz. And life is good, right? And yeah, like I started with like 50 or 100 quizzes that I had paid people for. And then, you know, at the end, I think, you know, we had a total of 50,000 quizzes that people had written and stuff in multiple languages, all kinds of crazy. It’s kind of happened mostly on its own, you know, I just kind of ticked off.
Bronson: Yeah. So you had 50,000 quizzes. I can only imagine how many tweets and how many people involved that means. I mean, yeah, that’s just millions of people now, right?
Dave: Yeah, it was crazy. Yeah. The reach was pretty wide. At one point, there was a grad student that was doing some research on Italy and between dataset, but we were pretty new at the time and ended up emailing me because like some significant percentage of all that we links were links to work with results. Right. Yeah. Which I thought was pretty funny.
Bronson: Also, you know, you arrived when you dominated early.
Dave: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And, you know, we were doing like, you know, 5 million pages a day for a while and, you know, it didn’t really last forever. We are dominating Twitter trending topics, and I don’t think that they really liked that. Right. So eventually they the trending topics were one of the big we got a bunch of traffic because basically I’d have this sort of call with hundreds of thousands of hours. And every time I tweet out a window quiz, you know, everyone would take it. It would become a trending topic. And, you know, at some points we had like a few quizzes and the trending topics and, you know, everyone would just click it and pick with them as this is kind of crazy, short lived phenomenon of like just, you know, super viral growth.
Bronson: Right? You would have more than one spot in the trends they had.
Dave: Yeah, that was very well. You know, they basically just shut me out. I mean, yeah, ultimately it wasn’t Twitter as a platform, but, you know, people liked it and you know, I was having a good time, so.
Bronson: Absolutely. Well, let me ask you, what did you learn about growth through that experience? Because, you know, so few people get to kind of be that close to a rocket ship, no matter how simple and fun or how short lived it is, you know?
Dave: Yeah, yeah. For sure. Yeah. I mean, it was it was really interesting to to go from, you know, I had the Google Analytics on there and we built on a lot of kind of custom analytics tools as well. And it’s just funny to see it go from like this kind of, okay, like 250 pages of the 500. I mean, I was like 5000 or 5000 was pretty good, right? And then at some point it just went, you know, and Twitter is this really interesting platform. And I don’t really know if something like this would be possible on Twitter because they’re so much more restricted about what you do. But like, you know, one of the biggest days we had is when like this Disney celebrity, this like teen singer took one of the quizzes that somebody had written about her. Right. And my services went down, you know, like, you know, there were like, you know, tens of thousands of people trying to take everything at the same time. And, you know, it was just like it was crazy, right? It was like just a lesson in the power of numbers and just like, you know, the power of traffic. Right? It’s like Twitter is all about this real time thing. You have a celebrity without a win like you’re going to have in the minutes afterwards. So it’s tens of thousands of people from all over the world trying to click that link. Right. You know, I just had a few servers I was renting somewhere. I was not prepared for that. Yeah, well, it’s worth paying for that. Yeah, a lot of we just trying to keep up, right? Just trying to keep the thing from falling over. Something is easier now with all the cloud stuff that’s out there. But it was. It was definitely an experience.
Bronson: Yeah, it’s a fun story. And before long quiz, you worked as an engineer at Hot or Not. And so as I saw that, it made me wonder, you know, did your experience it hot or not, kind of seeing the growth of their product kind of allow you or inspire you to try things like Low Quiz and 140 mafia because it feels kind of the same in terms of it’s lightweight, it’s fun, you know, it’s not curing cancer, but it waste a few minutes and it gets a lot of traffic. You know what I mean?
Dave: That for sure. Yeah, hot or not, was like absolutely, you know, kind of a training ground for building consumer web products. Right? I worked there just for a little while, like oh five or six, but, you know, it was a pretty small team, very analytics driven, very data driven. At any one time, there were only probably a few engineers and few customer service people. But, you know, they made a lot of money and everybody had a pretty good time working at it. Right. And, you know, I get a fair amount of independence. And basically the idea was if you could build it and, you know, you track the data and say, well, yes, this is good for the bottom line, or you ask people like this, then, you know, we had pretty much free reign to do stuff, right? And the hot or not mindset was like, it’s a very data driven before that was cool, right? It was like all kind of homegrown analytics tools, tracking basically every action, every part of the site. And on top of that, the metrics that we the things we are, we’re speed like the page is. World Championship the super fast because there is a measurable impact on revenue. It was slow, which I think a lot of people you know, Google has done studies on this, have already done studies on this. Right. And also just, you know, just simplicity. Right. Then simple product design. Right. I don’t know when any design awards, I’m sure there has perhaps this threat, but they do what they do and that’s all they do and people get it. And that’s and that’s what matters. Right? So like most of the things that I’ve done that have been successful, even if it hasn’t been quite like, you know, as low to the ground as having trouble has. Right. You know, ends up being about that kind of simplicity. Right. But it should do one thing, do it exceptionally well. Do it fast. Right. And and that’s that’s the best recipe that I’ve had or for success, right?
Bronson: Yeah. No, that’s great advice. And you know, you mentioned a few times that, you know, hot or not, they made a lot of money. You know, that’s one of the questions I have about these kinds of things is how easy is it to monetize something like hot or not or low quiz because it feels like it’s not durable, you know, from the outside looking in, but then there’s companies built off of it. So how easy is it to monetize it? And would you recommend people try to go that route if they’re really trying to build a business?
Dave: Yeah. So however, I actually was had a very large and sustainable recurring revenue business as a dating site, which nobody really knew about. I mean, I didn’t know about it when I took the job, right? I thought it would just be a funny line on a resume. So I did some freelance and brought it up. But ultimately, like, you know, I spent a lot of time there because there is a lot to learn from the people, right? So they had a dating site with, you know, you know, a lot of users, hundreds of thousands of active users any one time. And some chunk of those people were paying six bucks a month to contact other users. Right. And basically the hotter model lives on like it’s kind of sad that hotter ourselves in around because apps like Tinder or Meet Me or all these kind of mobile dating apps are basically doing that same thing with the exact same mechanics as hot or not and doing very well, you know, so and sometimes I think all of us that works out 100 at one point or another are thinking like, man, like we should have, you know, we should have been able to do that, right? But yeah, it was a great model that they did really well. You know, it was it was amazing. Right? So they managed to somehow transition from this flash in the pan cultural phenomenon to a really strong business. Yeah, that’s hard to do. Yeah.
Bronson: No, the.
Dave: Low thing was a flash in the pan just a little. What?
Bronson: Yeah. So see and maybe the takeaway is that, you know, if you have this kind of viral growth, use it as a customer acquisition to something else that you can then can you monetize whatever that something else is serve that audience is already inspired by what you’re doing. It kind of way to roll it in there.
Dave: Yeah, for sure. Because like, you know, there was a pretty loose coupling between the two sides of hot or not, but we kind of like the rating side and the medium side or the dating side. Right. And the dating side was great, was a much smaller group of users. Right. But those users, you know, were interested in something that was like a real business, right? Lopez never made that. We wrote it was quizzes, right? I mean, you know, you can try throwing ads on those pages and stuff, but it’s basically like the lowest quality traffic. You can think someone just wants to take your quizzes. You wanted the answer, right? Yeah. And I think. I think the rise of the App Store and or the app stores like Google Play and whatnot have made it a lot easier to monetize that kind of stuff. There’s, you know, hundreds of millions of people with their credit card information saved, right, in Apple servers. And you can charge $0.99 for something here or there. And, you know, maybe not make a venture scale, you know, billion dollar business, but at least you can, you know, pay for your server expenses and get the traffic going towards something that that will actually be sustainable. Right.
Bronson: Well, let’s talk about the app stores a little bit, because later you worked with Mega Tasty and you made iOS apps that ended up having millions of users for those iOS apps. So what kinds of apps did you guys create? And Mega Tasty.
Dave: Meditations working with Jim Young, one of the founders of Hot or Not. We had tried a bunch of different stuff before. I ended up working on the App Store and we built a lot of social networking locations, right? In a broad sense, the biggest one was this app called Free Photo Messenger FFM, which was a very simple anonymous instant messenger application. Right. So it kind of fulfilled a lot of the role that Snapchat culture fills now for people. But and 29, 2010, 11, it really just kind of took off among us, especially teenagers and iPod Touch users, because there wasn’t there weren’t a lot of options for messaging. There was no iMessage on iPod Touch. Right. And we’d also built some other social networking apps. The most popular ones were something called Who’s Around, which is like a location based chat app to show you people around you. And a series of apps that were kind of themed around location based social networking, but also with a theme like we had a Jersey Shore theme thing, you know, like a music themed social network that would talk about songs on your iPod and like create a music profile for you and you can chat with the music lovers, that kind of thing. So yeah, at some point we had had, I think six of the top 50 social networking apps on the iPhone were in the App Store. And, you know, the competition is a lot stiffer now, so you guys can’t necessarily do that anymore, although it’s kind of more power to you. You know, we were just kind of trying a bunch of different ideas. And the ones that worked really work, the ones that didn’t, nobody remembers.
Bronson: So how did you how did you get them to spread like they did? Was it just kind of natural people sharing with their friends, you know, you know, in person? Was there something deeper you guys were doing as a strategy there?
Dave: A lot of it, you know, a lot of it is about going back to the hunter, I think. Super simple design, right? The free photo messenger filled a need that people had, and we just made it really simple. It didn’t do anything right. All it did was let you send messages to these usernames and then later, you know, a number of photos, and that was it. And that, it turns out, is, again, a good recipe. Right. So people, you know, if you went into chatrooms of other games or anything like that, people were sending around their FFM usernames because it was anonymous and people could use it on their iPods and it just kind of like this, this niche that didn’t exist. Right. And the rest of it, we definitely designed of quantum mechanics for people to share on the apps. Right. Tim For Friends, you have all kinds of incentives for people to do it. But ultimately, you know, we had a pretty strong organic growth from our core products and we use that to cross-promote all the rest of the products. And on the App Store, if you’re ranked highly in any category, you get a fair amount of traffic, people going browsing through social networking and so on that what’s interesting and also. Right. So the more you can kind of get that real estate on those parts can do pretty well.
Bronson: Yeah. Now, so you’ve kind of grown, you know, products in two very different ways. You’ve had the low quiz, viral Twitter, you know, kind of thing. You’ve also had the the App Store. Very few people have done both. You know, I’ve had people on that have done well with apps. I’ve had people on that have done well with kind of these viral spreading things. But to do both is unique as you compare the two. Which are you more drawn to now? Would you try to do a little quiz again? Would you try to do iOS apps again or do you think you’re kind of done with both and there’s a better you know, the grass is greener somewhere else now. What’s your view on the landscape?
Dave: I think mobile is the where you know, as my last startup, I did not be mobile. And I think that was a mistake. And just looking at looking at the trends, looking at, you know, the number of iPads that have been selling in the last quarter, something like 80 million. I mean, some crazy number, right? Like people have these devices. People install apps on these devices. People are willing to spend time with your app and give it a shot in the way that I think on desktop is just not there anymore. Right. The way I always to think about it when I’m designing something is that, you know, somebody gets a link to your app or your your product. Right and they have seven other Iam windows open on their computer there’s a. Video of a cat falling down the stairs and it was like 10,000 other things going on. Right. And your app has like a few seconds to catch their attention, at least on the phone. There’s not another you don’t have other windows open. You don’t have YouTube things all over the place. Right. You just have to want you have your full attention for however many seconds you can convince them to stay with you. Right. And it’s kind of a different experience, you know, and I just think that there’s that idea that the experience is fundamentally different and also just that the trends towards mobile adoption are just insane, you know? So I think, you know, I don’t think the web is going to go away anytime soon, but whatever my next thing is, it’s going to be on mobile.
Bronson: Yeah. So you’ve talked about your next thing and then you’ve also talked about how with your last startup, one of the pitfalls was that it wasn’t mobile. So let’s talk about your last thing a little bit, because I think this is going to be really helpful for people. So recently you were involved with Flat Iron Collective. So tell us briefly what was Flat Iron Collective?
Dave: Right. So Flat Iron was me and two other guys that I worked with it hot or not. We all had our stuff together. I convinced some to move out here to New York and start something new, and we started without any particular idea of what we were going to work on. We ended up deciding to focus on this product called Whip Mark, which is a Chrome browser extension to kind of essentially create the groups for sharing news. And the twist is that it will share automatically from sites that you chose. You would say. I would say like Bronson, you’re my friend. Like, I’m going to share all of the stuff I read on The New York Times and on all the videos I watched on TV with you and you share CMM with me. And then we kind of get this kind of real time feed of what each.
Bronson: Other idea.
Dave: Was, was a core idea. We had, you know, we built a quick prototype at our friends on it. It went pretty well. We decided to raise some money. We had great investors and for whatever reason, I mean, I think for a lot of reasons, but we weren’t able to kind of break out of this sort of power user kind of audience, right? And everything else that I’ve done has been very much mainstream cheaper than mass market right away. I was thinking, well, we’re going to do this power user thing and then we’re going to kind of slowly make our way towards the mass market. Right? But after a year of kind of spinning the wheels on, it just really kind of hit a wall right where we weren’t able to make that leap. Right. And that is it’s been honestly a really tough experience. Right? The first time where I really felt like I’m like, this really didn’t work. And it’s a product I really like. And it’s so it’s tough to see. You know, we had announced to our users a couple of weeks ago, like, hey, guys, sorry, like we’re going to write about, you know, and that’s been a difficult process.
Bronson: Yeah. On the homepage of Blue Mark, when you announced to your users, you posted the email on the website and you said that the reason you were shutting down, you were very transparent about it, was that it didn’t really hit the growth goals that you had for Luke. Mark, if you don’t mind, you know, disclosing kind of what were your internal growth goals and maybe you didn’t have an exact number, but you just knew you weren’t there.
Dave: Yet, were there? I mean, like the number that people throw around is like, you know, 10% a week or something which like compounds over time to millions of users. Right? Which is great. I’ve never had like a specific number that I was trying to hit. We kind of threw in 10%, which is just kind of a round number, but like, you know, you wanted to what your growth rates are. So right, right. You want to, you know, you want 10% growth over time, right? Not like a steady number of users per day, but the study numbers of abusers, the data growth rate is absolutely increasing. Right, because user base is increasing, right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It is like and you know, we just didn’t we just didn’t have. Right. And after, you know, trying all these different ways, you know, we tried sometimes viral stuff. We tried changing the product and changing up the onboarding process, changing the messaging. And, you know, just just didn’t have that right. We have these users, these power users that left the firm and spent all day on it, which is great. Right. But couldn’t figure out how to get from them to a larger audience.
Bronson: Yeah. You know, maybe you have an answer for this and maybe you don’t. I’m not sure. But looking at it now and kind of, you know, going through it, do you have any ideas of why it didn’t go from the power users to the mass audience that you wanted? Can you look at any particular thing you’d be like, that might have been the reason that might have been the problem.
Dave: Yeah, I think there’s there’s a few things that I would take away from it. I mean, it’s hard because you don’t want to you want to create too many loopholes, right? So that like the next time I’m going to do this and I put this right because like, you know, things change all the time, right? But there’s things that are involved.
Bronson: In all this, too.
Dave: Yeah, exactly. Sure. But what I’m trying to pull away from it is that, for one, I didn’t follow the one rule, which is that the product has to do one thing right and just do the one thing very, very well and nothing else. Okay. And our product was kind of cool, but very. We get to the point in your browser, you get this kind of social wear on top of what you’re reading. So if I went to a New York Times article that you would already read, I could see your little thumbnail. And if you have a comment or a tweet about it, I would see that, which is very cool. But once you kind of got into it and had friends on it, it was a very cool experience, very neat experience. But, you know, try to try to explain that in five words. You can’t write that I think is a problem. Right. Because if I want to tell you about this new product that I love and I can’t explain to you, you know, how is that going to grow? Right. Yeah. And I think the sad thing is, you know, people read on so many different devices, not just because that’s a mobile, right? It’s like we want it to be this kind of automatic sharing, automatic recommendations based on your browser history, which is a cool idea, but it turns out like even super avid readers, like they do some reading on their laptop, they got some on their phone, they got a little on their iPad, maybe they got a Kindle. You know that specifically news and links and reading are so fragmented now that even in the best case, we would have only captured like some friends that were reading. And that’s just not as cool as capturing everything. So yeah, that’s kind of fundamental kind of platform based problems there.
Bronson: Yeah. And now you’ve done something that’s, I think, very difficult for an entrepreneur to do, which is to be honest with yourself. You know, you look at the product you knew internally, kind of basically 10% or something like that was what you were looking for month after month. And you’re honest with yourself to say, look, it’s not there. And instead of going at it another year and spending 12 more months, kind of, you know, on the hamster wheel, you decide. All right. Let’s move on to something else. How important do you think that kind of realism is for an entrepreneur? Because I don’t really have to be super optimistic and yet somehow very real at the same time. And that makes it almost impossible.
Dave: Yeah, it’s a tough balance, right? I mean, you know, a lot of people, I think would say, well, why don’t you tough it out? Why do you keep iterating? And I think that, you know, some of it is data, right? You look at the data and say, like, all these data are not very promising. The growth is not there. And then it’s also kind of a gut feel. Why do you think that if you keep digging in this area, that you’re going to find a goal that’s an underneath? Right. And I just felt like even if we kept digging, we wouldn’t find it right. And that’s a tough thing to admit because you do want to be the optimistic guy. You know, you hear all these stories about certain people. If they just stick to it, I find their thing. But you don’t hear all the stories of guys who spent another 18 months burned through all their investors money and didn’t get anywhere. That’s not as good of a story, right? Mm hmm. And, you know, it was kind of I mean, it was a really tough call. And some of our investors have been you know, all of our of us has been super supportive. Some of them have said, well, why don’t you keep going? And I think that’s a totally fair question. I mean, personally, we just felt like we’re not going to find a goal, right? We’re not going to keep digging and keep digging, and then we’re going to have nothing to get back to. And, you know, I think at the end of the day, everybody understands that. And I think that the transparency, the users transparency of the investors, you know, it’s the best they can do. You got to be honest with yourself and honest with everyone you interact with. And hopefully that serves you out in the long run, right?
Bronson: Oh, absolutely. I mean, you know, some people say that you have to you can only learn from successes. Some people say you learn from failures. I think you learn from both depending on who you are. You know, like if you’re willing to learn from both, you can learn from both. And you learn what not to do. You learn what to do. And it’s all you know, it’s all going to be rolled into the next thing. If you’re the kind of person that’s willing to learn. So.
Dave: Yeah, exactly. And I think that there’s plenty that I can take away from this experience, you know, personally, professionally, like technology wise, you know, and the best part has been hearing from users that like your products and said like, you know, you know, well, it’s not we do lots of investors also that say like look, you know we back to you and just let us know your next thing is, well, back to you. I got my back. That kind of support is great, right? Because it’s a tough thing to do to set that aside. Right. But but to feel like, you know, you can just, you know, regroup and come back from an upswing, that feels great. That’s like the best the best you can hope for, right?
Bronson: Yeah. And you earned that through your transparency and through your honesty, you know, you earn their trust to be able to come back and, you know, take another at bat with those users or those investors or of. Ever may be. Yeah, no, I absolutely hope so. Now, let me ask you this. You know, you’re one of the hardcore developers that we’ve had on the program, and we’ve only had a couple of those, you know, you know, there’s a handful here and there. But how much do you think engineering really allows you to grow products? Is it just something that you couldn’t do without or, you know, is it essential or is it just it’s extra? It helps. You know, it’s nice that you can actually go into the code and write these things that are going to be the mechanisms for sharing and distribution. How do you view your ability to program at that level?
Dave: Well, I mean, that’s a really good question, right? I think that one of the things that’s changed since I started doing this kind of development is that there are a lot more first. Tools. So you know what makes spanner? Our KISSmetrics or any of these things were different third party analytics tools. Now that will help you figure out what your product is doing and how to make it grow right, which this didn’t exist even five years ago. And I think that, you know, I built everything in-house. I used to build absolutely everything in-house every time, you know, start a company or do a new app. I took up all these kind of new, you know, analytics tools specific to your app. And I think that being able to do that is obviously very helpful. I think we needed a little bit less now than we used to because, you know, you can drop in max panel or whatever it is, right? It’s free for a small amount of usage and you’re good to go. I mean, knowing what to test and all that stuff like that’s still really important. But you don’t need to have a developer put up a logging tool for you because you can just use. Right. I think what it really comes down to is. You know, analytical mindset of saying like, what is it that we’re trying to do? What are the hypotheses we need to test? What are the data that’s going to give us the, you know, what do we need to test these things and let’s go and do it. Are we going to test something like knowing what to ab test as an important thing, you know, knowing what variations to make? It’s art, it’s science, right? So for me, you know, I feel really lucky that I’m able to both come up with a product, build it, tested, iterate it, make it work. Right. I feel like that’s a, you know, a unique thing in time. But, you know, at what point in history can one person do so much with the kind of tools that we have available to us? Right. It’s like crazy, right? But, you know, obviously, there’s plenty of people that you talk to. You’re less, you know, not you don’t need to be an engineer. You just need to have that analytical mindset of knowing, you know, what questions to ask and what do you need to answer that, right?
Bronson: Yeah, that’s great insight. Davis has been an awesome interview. I have one last question for you. It’s sort of a high level question. You can take it any direction you want, but what’s the best advice that you have for anyone that’s trying to grow a startup?
Dave: That’s also a great question. I think there’s a couple of things. I think the first thing is going back to the analytical mindset thing. I think that I think there are right answers for a lot of questions that could be asked about your product, your startup, your business. Right. And it’s hard to get them. It’s hard to know what questions to ask. Right. But that ultimately, like, you know, you have a gut feel about something. I think the button should be this color and it should be in the center of the screen on the right or whatever. But, you know, there’s some art to it, but there’s also science. You can try something, build it, try it, put it in front of people so that people do. I think that the sooner you do that, the better off you’re going to be, you know? Yeah. And I think the other thing is just to just to do it, just to go and put things in front of people. I mean, like I guess that’s a continuation of the first thing. So forgive me for making two out of one, but it means.
Bronson: You really care about the point, you know?
Dave: And the last thing I guess I want to hammer home is just the simplicity that, you know, you open up so many like startup pages or app description, the revenue. What the heck is this? Right. And if you as a, you know, a smart technical person involved in the industry, describe what a product is. And if you were, it’s how anybody has anybody going to do that, right? So that design simplicity, it’s always served me well in the past and I hope that it would serve others as well.
Bronson: Yeah, well, that’s awesome. Best of luck to you with your next venture. I know you’re a true entrepreneur and you’re going to take a breather and then be back in the game again. Thank you so much for just taking time out your schedule and and coming on the show to educate our audience.
Dave: Thanks a lot. My pleasure.